CathNews - a Service of Church Resources

Have Your Say 

Recent Comments

1. The time has come for Queensland priests and parishes to bring the whole St Mary’s community into our prayers and daily Masses, via the Prayers of the Faithful?
   
   Clearly, Fr Kennedy and his Trades and Labor Council followers are in need of our prayers, as is the true Church under the Archbishop.
   
   Both groups will now settle down and hopefully focus on discerning God’s will for each of them; - a process that will take time and reflection; - and courage!
   
   The duty of the wider church is to pray for both at this time: "May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ be brought together in unity, by the Holy Spirit"
   
   

   Posted By: Oremus

2. I wonder how long it will be before the "For Sale" signs come out? It's very valuable real estate.
   
   Meanwhile a friend in Adelaide has been informed there will be no more masses for her and her community and the bishop sent along a (female) spokesperson to tell them. Needless to say my friend (a faithful daily mass goer in her 60s - rather conservative in many ways) stood up and said a few words in anger and disbelief, not just at the fact that there will no longer be any masses, but that the bishop sent a woman to do the dirty work of telling the congregation and well, they are now abandoned, left high and dry without a priest and it's only going to get worse. Apparently, (correct me if I am wrong) there are only 20 diocesan priests left in Adelaide, all rather elderly.
   
   So, Papa, are we supposed to just fend for ourselves now? Well, don't blame us if we do. The writing has been on the wall for decades and you have not done anything about it and if anything, only criticised and silenced those who have tried to prepare us all for what is coming. And it's not just the radical Catholics who are angry now, it's a 60 year old daily communicant who loves her church and so many like her.
   
   The change is just going to have to come from the ground, it's obviously not going to come from the top - "the top" have nothing to lose (except perhaps collection money), they can still have their daily masses and property and support. Tough luck for us down here.
   
   Meanwhile, at Sth Brisbane, there will be a smaller congregation which I strongly suspect will dwindle over time and Fr Howell will be overburdened by his workload and see St Mary's as no longer viable and then they'll get millions for the real estate to pay for all the abuse - Don't laugh, it's already happening in America and if you want the sources, I'll give them.
   
   Oh yet we trust, that somehow, good will be the final goal of ill.

   Posted By: Oh Yet We Trust

3. I was there at the Saturday Vigil mass as per my regular, ordinary, 15 year, obligation as a South Brisbane Parishioner. I had the premonition to do a head count, anticipating the Cathedral would indulge in such shameless PR shenanigans.
   This report of 150 attendance is simply not true, there were 80 +- 10, and I'm a scientist, I know how to score data.
   I have no axe to grind except a wish that this parish be delivered from the shenanigans of extra-parishional political and personality-cult agendas of all stripes, so I can get back to having a home parish.
   The cathedral rentacrowd is doing more harm than good. I don't get what they are on about, are they too good for their own parishes, can't submit to what the diocese has dealt them as a parish priest? They already have the Cathedral to indulge their special proud grievences , surely that's enough for anyone.
   Please rentacrowd, just let us simple South Brisbane parishioners ( per canon 518, I took the troble to look it up) be, and let Fr Howell get on with his job of ministering to the Parishioners of South Brisbane. He doesn't need you, you are just getting in the way, with your steamroller ways. You are not genuine South Brisbane parishioners, no more than most Kennedy-ites were. Two wrongs do not make a rite. Pax Vobiscum.

   Posted By: South Brisbane Parishioner

4. Show me whom you invite to dinner and I will show you your Church.

   Posted By: Elizabeth

5. OYWT, your hyperbole doesn’t help anybody. As of last July Adelaide has 145 priests to serve its 67 parishes. It is forecast that on average three priests will retire each year, and in recent years ordinations have averaged less than one per year. This is a dire problem, but nothing like your figures. Please name this Adelaide parish which will allegedly have “no more masses”, no priests and “abandoned” by the Archdiocese?
   
   And this has little or no relevance to the figures for Brisbane, which are significantly healthier, nor the figures for the rest of Australia, which are much healthier.
   
   And you’re confusing the real shortage of priests with an imaginary shortage of worshippers. AFAIK there has never been a Catholic church closed or sold off in Australia because of dwindling congregations, except where this occurred as a result of a general fall in the population. Don’t worry, St Mary’s won’t be sold off.
   
   And what is wrong with sending a woman to deliver this supposed news? Our Saviour thought that women were good enough to deliver to the Apostles the news of His Resurrection. IIRC you once said you wanted women to take a more visible and authoritative role in the Church.
   
   Please provide evidence for your assertion that B16 has criticised and (LOL) “silenced” (HOW?) anyone warning of a shortage of priests. On the contrary, he himself has frequently given such warnings.
   
   I can’t imagine why any Catholic would “laugh” at the $millions which have been legally extorted from dioceses in the USA, causing them to cut down their essential services and little if any of which will go towards helping abuse victims to heal.
   
   “S Brisbane Parishioner”, the figure of 150 was written by the Courier-Mail report. Presumably the reporter is experienced in estimating crowds. I don’t see what being a scientist has to do with being able to count. And if as you claim, the Courier-Mail is an organ for promoting “shameless PR shenanigans” by “the Cathedral”, this is certainly the first evidence I’ve seen of it, in the face of a mountain of evidence that the Courier-Mail has done everything possible to present the Church in a bad light, especially over this issue.
   
   And Canon Law imposes no restriction on the right of ANY Catholic to freely enter and worship at ANY Catholic Church of his choice. And how come it’s only NOW that you first complain about non-parishioners attending?
   And for all you know, the unfamiliar faces you saw on Saturday DO live in S Brisbane but had been attending Mass elsewhere, or not at all, during Kennedy’s reign of terror. Did you demand their addresses?
   

   Posted By: Ronk

6. As this South Brisbane experience is very much a public matter (Australia-wide interest, and in Rome also) a statement would be welcome on how the archdiocese is handling the apparently invalid sacraments administered at St Mary's over the years. Have many of the parents of children baptised by the South Brisbane formula been located? Do they ask for a valid sacrament or are they satisfied with the S.Brisbane way? Baptism of desire would probably come into force. But what about weddings?
   It is desirable for the archdiocese to be as open as possible on S.Brisbane issue so the way ahead may be smoothed a little.
   Fr Kennedy and his assistant certainly built up a very social justice-oriented congregation and other parishes can learn from them. However it must be remembered that Brisbane priests often have several parishes to which to attend. Fr Kennedy could concentrate on one only (or so it see,ms to me. ) Prayers for both groupings are called for in all parishes, as somebody has suggested..

   Posted By: BALANCED

7. If it is the will of God then it will survive and continue to be a church community of faith. In my own opinion, at the moment when the parish of St Mary still trying to settle down under the new management we cannot gauge whether the church will continue or be handled by the real estate people and be "SOLD" by just the number of massgoers. We'll wait and see in a few months time but I have strong faith and perception that it will go on. I am a catholic and been active in my parish and I can see people's attendances at mass are not the same all the time. We need priests too but we manage to have lay-led liturgies (sometimes) if no priest available. Lay led liturgy with holy communion but of course under the authority of our archbishop. The ministers (male and female) are well trained and ready for that ministry.

   Posted By: Zita

8. To Sth Brisbane Parishioner,
   
   You cite canon 518 as reason to say people who normally attend at the Cathedral should not now attend St Mary's.
   Canon 518 merely defines a parish as being within a certain geographical area. That it ministers to those within that area (territory) does not mean it excludes others from outside that area attending Mass . Here is the exact wording: Can. 518 As a general rule, a parish is to be territorial, that is, it is to embrace all Christ's faithful of a given territory.
   
   Also there is a good chance that many, who for years have been attending the Cathedral, do live within the parish of St Mary's. Until now they may have been attending the Cathedral in order to attend Mass in a form that is normal for Catholics.
   
   If I had lived near St Mary's, and been a part of that parish (territory) while Fr Kennedy was in charge, I would have found the next closest parish to attend that offered Mass and sacraments in the form intended by the Church. There would be some relieved to be able to worship again, according to the norms of their own rite, in their own parish. That is their canonical right!
   
   Can. 214: The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescripts of their own rite approved by the legitimate pastors of the Church.
   
   Regarding the priest in charge - Can. 528 §2: Under the authority of the diocesan Bishop, the parish priest must direct this liturgy in his own parish, and he is bound to be on guard against (liturgical) abuses.
   

   Posted By: Arabella

9. OK Ronk, you may have me on the numbers (you are so good at that) and my friend may have been talking about her particular diocese. I'll check up on that one. Which ever way the decline in priests is reaching a critical stage and it's no longer serving any of us at ground level.
   
   In reference to who has been criticised and painted black for trying to prepare and respond to the priest shortage, Paul Collins and the Bishop of Toowoomba are two that come to mind immediately and I suppose you could throw in Fr Kennedy there, too, but then their concerns are then conveniently conglomerated with 'suspicious' theology (because they dare question church teachings out of concern for their parishioners) and are therefore, thrown out. Meanwhile, nothing changes.
   
   Comparing the news of the resurrection with the news of no more priests doesn't deserve a response regardless of whether a woman or man delivered the news.
   
   When I said "don't laugh" it should have been obvious that I was referring to people laughing at my suggesting that parish churches in the USA are actually right now being sold against the will of the ordinary parishioners, not the way you suggest which is actually rather an insult that you should think I was suggesting such a thing. It's nothing but tragic but I suspect it all could have gone very differently.
   
   Anyway as I said in another comment, I've had it, ("yeah"! I hear many of you shouting) and will not bother or upset you all here any more. You may have your certainties. In the end it is you as YOU that will stand before God, not you as a Catholic.
   
   And also like I said, if I got it wrong, there's always confession.
   
   Your brother in pilgrimage. Stephen.

   Posted By: Oh Yet We Trust

10. OYWT - the relationship between the lack of priestly vocations and the Adelaide archdiocese's active promotion of a liberal protestant ecclesiology, the most recent manifestation of which is the "Leap Ahead" project that effectively relegates priests to the sidelines, is becoming alarmingly clear.
    
    Most recently, an experienced and well respected priest was withdrawn from the parish to which he was appointed several months ago because he wanted to offer a brief reflection during the Good Friday Stations of the Cross without the approval of the "liturgy committee", and dared to challenge the paid lay bureaucrats who, in the restructuring of parishes, are perceived to be usurping the proper functions and authority of faithful and dedicated priests. A complaint by one of them was sufficient to have this good priest removed.
    
    In relation to priestly vocations, the Adelaide archdiocese and its theological advisers have long been planning for failure, emphasising "priest shortage" as an opportunity to pursue "different ways of being church", to the dismay and scandal of many parishioners who, increasingly, among other responses, are refusing to direct financial contributions to "future planning" directed at de-priesting the Church.
    
    Adelaide, it should also be said, is arguably the most radically feminised diocese in Australia.

    Posted By: Marian

11. Balanced, as I understand it "baptism of desire" merely means that those who wanted valid baptism and were unable to receive it prior to death are considered to be baptised. It does not validate an invalid formula. The Holy See has confirmed ( http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20080201_validity-baptism_en.html ) that Kennedy's formula and similar formulas are invalid. As certainty is required regarding validity of sacraments, all those baptised at S Brisbane during Kennedy's tenure will presumably have to be (at least conditionally)baptised validly before they can receive any other sacrament. Subject of course to Kennedy at some stage formally notifying the Church of which baptisms he (and Fitzpatrick, and, I wouldn't be surprised, laymen) performed validly and which he didn't (by time periods or by names, etc.) If he remembers or even cares.

    Posted By: Ronk

12. I am a taxi driver and go to the church I am nearest to.I always attend Sunday mass but rarely do I go to the church nearest my residence. I expect each parish I go to to have basically the same mass. Catholics should be able to do this. Most churches welcome visitors to their parish at the start of each mass. The reason for the latin mass was it could not be tampered with. I am not arguing in favour of the Latin mass as I prefer the English version but I understand the reasoning behind it. The St Mary's saga is an argument in favour of the latin mass. Maybe one mass should always be in Latin? phil jones.

    Posted By: phil jones

13. I am commenting on part of a submisson by "O yet We Trust" just to set them right on their comment about a friend in Adelaide advising that their church will not be having any more masses etc. I realize that this is nothing to do with Father Peter Kennedy but I do feel strongly about this misinformation. I go to this particular Church and was recently advised by a Cathedral Chancellor (who just happened to be a female) that our Priest was to be removed and relocated to the Cathedral parish. Despite whatever reason was given, or whatever the real reason was, there was never any references to all masses being withdrawn from the church and in fact it was advised that priests from the Cathedral would be provided for future masses. Our parish which consists of two churches has now been taken under the umbrealla of the Cathedral administration. I do not know what is planned by AB Wilson for the future, but at this stage it has been confirmed that both churches will be retaining their masses and devotions. I think this person's "friend" is the person who was quite hysterical at the mass when this announcement was made. I am not aware of the true reason why this priest (who had been with us for just over four months) was removed from the parish but whatever it was, the parishioners have ultimately become the losers, because having been taken over by the Cathedral there is no chance now of us ever having our own resident priest moderator. I just wanted to set the record straight here because I feel that putting misinformation like this on the net will do nothing but stir up trouble.

    Posted By: Concerned

14. I am with Oremus -prayer and penance is the only solution to this sad and distressing business. It is the only solution to the many wounds in the body of the Church caused by our sinful natures .It is the saintly elderly and the people enduring disability who are saving us all. We are all too full of pride arguing with one another, judging one another, instead of receiving the sacraments with humble gratitude and knowing our God is with us and even if we are ridiculed, persecuted and despised by the world that His Divine Heart will ultimately prevail. We are to be in this world like clear lanterns with the sacramental grace of the living bread sustaining the light of our souls to give light in this darkening world. We can do nothing without Christ Everything we have is gift. Instead of looking to see winners and losers in arguments, simply pray that His will shall prevail in all things.

    Posted By: Too much din.

15. Thanks, Concerned. I hope we are talking about the same place because the friend of a friend that I mentioned never came across to me as the hysterical type, never. But it was second-hand information and I stand corrected if indeed we are talking about the same parish. Must get my facts straighter next time. Is it possible a similar thing happened somewhere else? There you go everyone, lots of ammo. for you.
    
    Regardless, we are still heading for priestless parishes and no-one seems to want to accept that, to the point of practically and maturely addressing it, except the Bishop of Toowoomba and Paul Collins. At least they are the ones I know of.
    
    All the best everyone.

    Posted By: Oh Yet We Trust

16. OYWT, plenty of people are addressing the current and foreseeable future shortages of priests. But you seem to only notice the tiny minority who use this real problem to push their personal agendas, not out of any real concern for the problem.
    
    In several Australian dioceses, notably Melbourne, Perth, Sydney and especially Wagga, there are adequate numbers of new priests being ordained to replace those retiring. If places like Adelaide which are suffering a vocations drought would investigate and emulate what their neighbours are doing, the problem would be well on the way to being solved.

    Posted By: Ronk

17. "Oremus" and "Too much din": yes, prayer and penance are necessary when confronted with issues of such consequence, but so, too, is clear thinking and the expression of it based on facts: civilly and charitably conducted argument within the parameters of the Church's teaching and authority is a part of development.
    
    Catholics are not Quietists.

    Posted By: Richard

18. The Biggest Loser (to coin a popular phrase) in all this is Archbishop John Bathersby. By his refusal to talk and listen to the people of the diocese who attended St Mary's while Fr Peter Kennedy was administrator, he denied the people their rightful claim to him as "shepherd" of the Brisbane archdiocese.
    If these people now either leave the church altogether, or join with others in their community who gather together at the TLC building, he has only himself and his advisors to blame. His actions and words have resulted in both hurt, division, injustice and possibly individual clarity and true knowledge of the hierarchical nature of the Catholic church.

    Posted By: Lorraine

19. Richard I agree there is a place for civil discourse and reasoned argument but before and after such discourse prayer and pennance must exist It is not a matter of being a quietist as you call it but in speaking only when the Spirit impels and guides you, otherwise the danger is our speech becomes a deterrent to people arriving at Truth. I happen to be an ardent member of pro-life and have written continuously to politicians and the media in defence of life.However I have learnt the hard way that when left purely to our own egos, debate can be fuelled by pride not love and Jesus warned us that without charity any action we take is hollow.I agree we must be living witnesses to Truth; I am simply suggesting we need to discern when we should speak and when words are no longer effective or necessary and that discernment or wisdom does not come from human intelligence but is a gift of the Spirit .

    Posted By: Quitest no-discerning yes?

20. Lorraine, re your wild accusations against Abp Bathersby, please name one person whom he has ever refused to speak or listen to, or whom he has denied the right to be a member of his archdiocese?

    Posted By: Ronk

21. Things must be crook in Adelaide town:
    one bishop gone bush; the other off the planet!
    
    Whoops! Are clerical jokes off limit, too?

    Posted By: Tom

22. Things are crook. Just spoke to another (different) friend from Adelaide and she said the same thing.
    
    And Jesus said to St Francis, "rebuild my Church which you see has fallen into ruins. ..."

    Posted By: Oh Yet We Trust

• » Advertise in CathNews

Email to Friend Please fill out the following details (fields marked with a * are mandatory):
Send To Email Address*:
Send To Name *:
Sent By Email Address*:
Sent By Name *:
Text to include in email:
Captcha validation:	please enter the code above:

^ Page Top

Comment on this article

More from this section

1. Farrelly flags loss of priestly faculties for Kennedy

   Brisbane chancellor, Fr Adrian Farrelly, has said that former St Mary's South Brisbane administrator Fr Peter Kennedy's move to set up a separate congregation would have "serious consequences" possibly including loss of priestly faculties.

2. Jewish jokes out: Wilson

   Adelaide Archbishop Philip Wilson has said that Catholics should not tell Jewish jokes or use the Jewish name Yahweh in readings and songs.

3. Lowest paid should not carry costs: Saunders

   Australia's lowest paid workers should not have to carry the costs of job protection, Australian Catholic Social Justice Council chairman Bishop Christopher Saunders says in the annual Pastoral Letter for the Feast of St Joseph the Worker.

4. ACU prepares pandemic plan

   Australian Catholic University has updated protocols developed during the SARS crisis in order to be prepared for the possibility of a swine flu pandemic.

5. Historic apology to Josephites

   Adelaide Archbishop Philip Wilson has made a public apology to the Sisters of St Joseph over the wrongful excommunication of Mary MacKillop in 1871.