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1. Spot on! The more sentimental the hymns, the more feminised the liturgy, and the more women and girls there are running round on the altar, the less do men want to have anything to do with the Church.
   
   Funny, it doesn't work like that the other way round. Apart from a few dyed-in-the-wool feminists (who don't believe in anything except themselves), I don't think women like a feminised church either.

   Posted By: Lance Eccles

2. I do believe that there is the need for a bit more "testicularity" in our faith expression and celebration. When the "animus" is too far separated from the "anima" the full power of the person gets lost and the Holy Spirit can only flap one of its wings. It may even be a question of going forth and being building or giving birth to the Kingdom - the "people of God." ....

   Posted By: Gene

3. I suppose that only means that the British Catholic Church is full of hyper-patriarchal, insecure men; because in many other Catholic cultures, dancing and singing is very manly, but very womanly too.
   
   And by the way, singing hymns and praises to and about another 'Man' (namely- Jesus) seems kinda 'girly' too don't you think?
   
   I suppose the former Empire still has the huge hangover of liking militaristic hymnals of triumphant (sung whilst they killed and persecuted so many in the name of God, Country and King).

   Posted By: TJ Lawson

4. Hear, hear. Girls may be moved by all the "God is my boyfriend" type hymns, but they're a major turn-off for young men.

   Posted By: Ronk

5. This article is hilarious, but probably quite true across the board and not only in Britain. A lot of the hymns, church furnishings, etc. would appeal to or have the female touch though, since the majority of people who attend church (and volunteers) are women (not to mention the hard work done by nuns).
   
   As for the hymns, quite a lot of them are actually composed by men (check out the Gather Australia composers list). It is not surprising that many of the hymns would read/appear to be like love songs, as that is the relationship that Christ has with his Church, and the Church is more often referred to as "she" and "her".
   
   As for the dancing in church, I quite agree. And I cannot see paintballing and clay pigeon shooting as particularly appealing to your average congregation (or I could be wrong?).
   
   It would be great to have a survey like this conducted for people (men and women) in Australia.
   
   I also notice that a photograph of The Priests accompanies this article - maybe they might encourage a few more males to get singing or at least in touch with their softer side!!

   Posted By: Melba

6. Isn't it time the Church got rid of female altar servers and extra-ordinary ministers?
   
   It seems to me that they serve no useful purpose besides allowing the person to vainly be in the sight of others

   Posted By: Uncle Chop, Chop

7. Another related issue: children's hymns and others with high-pitched male voices in Catholic secondary schools. I've seen the senior students roll their eyes and look disgusted while their teacher was oblivious, carried away with the 'deep-&-meaningful' experience she imagined the students were sharing!

   Posted By: Tom McKibbin

8. Sadly a very shallow article, which displays no actual understanding of worship or sacred music. One wonders what the questions actually were.
   
   However, perhaps it points to something of note - 'old fashioned' hymnody has a pull.
   
   But, in a world where even in church we seem to have lost a sense of the sacred I suspect we need to start anew.
   
   Music in church should be sacred in character, pointing to the True, the Good The Beautiful.

   Posted By: Peter

9. We definitely ned to restore more manly sounding hymns to counteract the homosexualisation of culture and atmosphere within the Church.
   Homosexual culture has its very own worldview including making inroads into liturgy, theology and speech within the the Church and needs to be put down.

   Posted By: Michael Webb

10. Lance Eccles is right. I don't think all that many young women or girls are moved by "Gather us in" or "So, I leave my boats behind." In fact, the women I know detest it even more than I do. The point is not the feminisation of the Church, but simply sentimentalising (or if you like effeminising) the Church, who is feminine, and has always been seen as such. It is a false image of femininity, and likewise of love. The love of "Come as you are" is hollywood love, not the love of John Donne or the Brownings, in other words, not really love at all, but sheer lazy sentimentality.
    
    Ultimately, I suppose though, this raises a further question: Why not simply return to singing what the Church has always considered her own song, par excellence: Gregorian chant, that to which, according to Sacrosanctum Concilium, "pride of place is to be given in liturgical services" because it is "especially suited to the Roman liturgy" (SC, 116), organ music (SC, 121), and the Church's rich polyphonic tradition (SC, 116)? This music is not macho, in the bad sense of the word, and it definitely does not exclude women. But it is inclusive of men in a sense in which modern music just is not.
    
    Another huge problem in most parishes is the pitch at which most singing is done, which automatically rules out men singing, unless they sing falsetto.

    Posted By: Adeodatus

11. I could not agree more with Adoedatus about the high pitch of church singing - too high for many women also. I always understood that hymns were pitched for the tenor voice. My solution is to sing the tune an octave lower.
    
    As for the whole issue of what female and male members of the assembly like or do not like, there
    is an article in today's Eureka Street about the new ABC Kids' channel. One paragraph points out that internationally girls are under-represented. "Most cartoons are designed for boys on the 'shaky' assumption that girls watch boys' TV, but boys don't watch girls' TV."
    
    It has ever been thus. In primary school classrooms you will find teachers choose the class reading book on the basis that if the boys are interested the girls will go along, but if the girls are interested the boys will tune out. Seems church might be much the same.
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: exa

12. Adeodatus has a point about chanting - perhaps a combination of hymns from a standard hymnal, such as Gather Australia, with a few Gregorian chants and other more traditional and Latin sacred music can ensure that a quality mix of hymns is included (at the same time though, it should not be a confusing mix or a "dog's breakfast", as it were).
    
    Being someone who sings in a choir, some of the hymns can be awfully high-pitched for men, but this can be transposed on the musical instrument to suit the singers' voices. And there are some 'macho' hymns such as "For All the Saints" and "We Have No Other Boast" and how about "I Am The Bread of Life" (which is very low singing for females)?
    
    As a female I don't necessarily feel comfortable with holding hands and dancing in the church or singing "Celine Dion" type hymns (of which there are, thankfully, very few). But I think the upshot of the above comments is this: there needs to be a partnership between men and women and more balance in the Church, i.e. not entirely male or female, but we should be united as a community in the Body of Christ.
    
    The Church is referred to as the bride of Christ, hence the focus on more feminine and "lovey-dovey" hymns. But if men want to have a greater say or participation in the music (and I reiterate, a lot of the composers of such hymns are men), they are more than welcome to sing tenor and bass parts in choirs. The point is there should be room for us all.
    
    

    Posted By: Melba

13. Of course from a (Roman) Catholic perspective, the best music is the music that the tradition of the Church provides us - the proper Gregorian chants for each Mass. Each with their own character proper to the feast. Church documents, both post and pre conciliar, point to Gregorian chant as the model for all sacred music. Next the Church counts sacred polyphony. Vernacular hymnody is admitted a place too.
    
    It isn't about 'male' or 'female' it's about what is the right SACRED music.

    Posted By: Peter

14. The purpose of the Mass is to do as Christ commands us to do at the Last Supper, do this in memory of Me.Jesus was getting ready to suffer a horrible death.Is a travesty to try to make of the Mass a Hollywood play to entertain the parishioners.

    Posted By: Martha

15. O come on! The men are in charge and yet they complain still. This woman wants Female Deacons,
    no liturgical dancing, homilies that relate to our daily lives and struggles and not simply a recap of scripture, men to stop pawing their wives shoulders and back during Mass, the removal of disruptive children (I took mine out if needed) and music that inspires us to either holiness or love of neighbour.

    Posted By: Nina

16. I enjoy sermons based on the Bible readings. Hold the funny jokes about your latest personal experience to a minimum ....
    http://www.catholicbible101.com
    

    Posted By: Thaddeus

17. I would not do well on your survey. I like flowers and the sermons, but the most important part I like is the changing of the water and bread into the body and blood of Christ. AND I hate the singing (of course I can't sing a note and my singing sounds like blasphemy). I do enjoy just the music without words. I also am appalled by any form of dancing nor do I care for banners inside church.

    Posted By: Chaz

18. I agree with Lance and with Adeodatus. Here in the U.S., we have the same problem. Some of the music sung in Mass is awful musically and lyrically, focusing not on the reality of what is happening in the Mass, but on shallow sentimentality. Often Jesus is depicted as an effeminate, sentimental, "inclusive" teacher, and not as the strong God-man that He was, even on crucifixes. My husband really appreciates when the crucifix above the altar shows Jesus with some muscle, and, frankly, so do I. As a woman, I am more attracted to and comforted by strong statements about Jesus and who He was and is, and am turned off by sappy, effeminate sentimentality, and so is my husband. It's about time we returned to more traditional expressions of worship that had some strength to them.

    Posted By: Laura P

19. I heartily agree with the author of this article. I grew up Catholic and left 20 years ago. Several weeks ago, I was back to a Catholic church for my neice's first communion. Frankly - yuk would describe my feelings. All sentimental wishy-washy feel-good songs, banners, ect. I frankly don't care to hold hand with strangers. Going to a catholic church reminds why I never intend to return.

    Posted By: Jim

20. Melba, great comment. But “I am the Bread of Life”, which ranges from a low A to a high E, is not suitable for the voices of 99% of EITHER sex. Wonderful lyrics, and when sung by someone who really can sing it, it’s electrifying, but impossible as a congregational hymn. Like many modern hymns it’s designed for a soloist or a well-practised choir.
    
    You can’t really expect the majority of men to be able to confidently and correctly sing tenor or bass parts against the melody. Just as not many women would be able to sing an alto part in polyphony. Unfortunately very few Australian schools have taught singing properly for the past few decades, and an enthusiastic new chorister can take months or years of painstaking practice to get up to scratch, even if he has a good ear for pitch. What the great majority of men (and women) in the congregation want, is MELODIES that they can sing, that don’t have sudden leaps in pitch, or puzzling changes in rhythm or meter, or different tunes in different verses, or any of the other “look-at-me” tricks which some modern composers seem addicted to. They don’t want vague, airy-fairy or theologically ambiguous (or even downright wrong) lyrics; they want words in which they can confidently express what they actually believe, and praise and worship God as they know they should in order to be fully human and fully alive.
    
    Jim, please give Catholicism and its music another go, at an “ordinary” Mass. Unfortunately, First Holy Communion Masses often tend to have the very worst of Catholic music and liturgy, driven by teachers/liturgists whose overriding aim is to “make sure the kiddies don’t get bored”, as it’s one of the few Masses most of them have ever attended, and they’ve never in their lives had to sit still for an hour. So it ends up as such an all-singing, all-dancing happy-clappy extravaganza that you half-expect to see The Wiggles burst onto the “stage” (sanctuary) doing the Mashed Potato.
    

    Posted By: Ronk

21. Jim,
    
    As you can see from this forum, there are plenty of Catholics who feel the same way as you. Don't forget that the wishy-washiness you despise also makes us shake our heads too. Anyhow, it doesn't change the fact that when you get down to the nuts and bolts of Catholicism, it's made for Christian soldiers, fighting for our Lord, not for stupidly tolerant sops holding hands and clapping each other on in church.
    
    Don't let the flower-power frauds blind you from the truth, mate!

    Posted By: Paul Keen

22. I think the Gregorian chant is the way to go. It has been adapted by the Taize community which could be used in our churches.

    Posted By: kenno

23. Jim, I am very sorry to hear about your experience. Yes, Catholics in the west have unfortunately ditched an extremely rich cultural heritage, and embraced modernity in all its emptiness. But that said, the Church is alive, and she does lead us to God, and she is recovering that heritage. I hope you come to encounter that revival the Church in all her ancient novelty.

    Posted By: Adeodatus

24. I agree Ronk. The Wiggles song MASHED POTATO is best done at home with the kids in one's lounge room and not around the altar.
    I do the Mashed Potato/cold spaghetti tune with my two young children at home by the way. Haha.

    Posted By: Michael Webb

25. Nina, get the chip off your shoulder. “The men” are not in charge. The hierarchy (<0.01% of men) are in charge. And why blame the men alone for “pawing their wives’ shoulders and back during Mass”? Presumably their wives approve, perhaps they even demand it. And whilst inappropriate, it is not as irreverent or annoying as many other more common misbehaviours in church (loud chattering, turning backs on the Tabernacle without genuflecting, putting feet on kneelers, sitting with arms folded making no attempt to join in the congregation’s said or sung parts of the Mass or hymns, coming in 5-10 minutes late and leaving 5-10 minutes early, turning the Sign of Peace into a hippie hug-fest or a get-to-know-you session or to catch up with all the week’s gossip, allowing school-age children to pay no attention to what’s going on, etc) .

    Posted By: Ronk

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