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1. Nothing would surprise me anymore considering there's already a new translation of the Mass which is a violation of just about everything Vat11 stood for.John xxiii would turn in his grave if he knew what is going on at present.
   
   So are the Bishops going to roll over on this one as well as they did with approval of the new translation? Don't know about shepherds --more like silence of the lambs

   Posted By: Bill Brady

2. Another wild goose chase from journalists too lazy to read what is emanating from the Pope - his very good challenge on the ethics of economics in his latest encyclical and other Vatican departments - the excellent challenge to the issue of migrants and refugees for this week's remembrance at all our Masses.

   Posted By: Fr Mick Mac Andrew Bombala-Delegate NSW

3. I stopped going to Mass for a year because of liturgical abuses imposed by the priest and his fellow travellers in the parish.
   
   The final straw was when the people who brought up the gifts at the offertory stood next to the priest at the altar and held them up while he said the offertory prayers.
   
   Later, the 'extraordinary' ministers of the Eucharist would break the host and then the priest would sit down while they alone distributed communion. Of couse, God was never referred to as Father or He.
   
   And you know what? Neither the priest, nor anyone else from the parish came and sought me out and asked why I was no longer attending Mass. Of course there is a connection between their ownership and abuse of the Mass and their lack of pastoral care, but I didn't expect them to see it.
   
   IF there is a reform of the reform, bring it on.

   Posted By: Phillip Turnbull

4. Bill Brady I honestly hope you will respond to this Question, because I am very interested: have you ever read the documents from the Council particularly Sacrosanctum Concilium? Perhaps you should! You will be surprised to note that virtually nothing that you consider to be a result of Vat II was required by the Council, for example, were we to be truly obeying the council, the majority of Masses would be in Latin, Gregorian Chant (not protestant composed Guitar Music) would be the musical norm and older churches would still have (and be using) their eastward facing high altars. In addition the Council NEVER proposed Communion in the hand or female altar servers.
   
   So I say lets truly embrace Vat II and not this false "spirit of the council" that has ruled our Church these past 40 odd years. Bring on the Reform of the Reform, Long Live BXVI
   
   As a postscript I am not some old Fuddy Duddy I am a 21 y.o who "reverted" to the faith relatively recently and who enjoys good faithful liturgy!

   Posted By: Alexander FH

5. Communion direct to the mouth (not from the hand) - no way. The mere thought is unhygienic and off-putting.
   Mass with the priest with his back to the congregation - again - no way. At least facing us we have some feeling of being included

   Posted By: g healey

6. When something is denied you know it's on the cards
   
   How does one explain the imminent changes about to be made to the mass?
   
   Benedict is well known to dislike the place of the "sign of peace" in the liturgy. He has apparently sent around a questionnaire to bishops canvassing the idea of moving the "sign of peace"
   
   One only needs to see the look on his face when he has celebrated mass in the past: Often at St Peter's the exchange of peace is prolonged because of the number of people present.
   
   The pontiff looks anything but "at peace" when he sees the exchange go on for longer than he desires.
   
   THere is also news that a bishop in the US has stopped facing the people when celebrating Mass.
   
   Gee that's a step forward isn't it? I can see the young people flocking to Mass now. Being a catholic in this day and age is akin to having masochistic tendency.
   
   Why would anyone want to join us??

   Posted By: Elias Nasser

7. I sympathise with you Phillip. However instead of no longer going to Mass you should have found a parish that said the Mass well.
   
   The Eucharist is the centre of a Catholics life. We should not allow ourselves to be driven away from it by the abuse of certain persons. If that happens then we become the losers.
   

   Posted By: Greg Guy

8. Actually Bill, the new translation is merely a more accurate translation of the original Latin text for the New Mass (circa 1969). It was the first translation of the New Mass that was inaccurate.
   
   The New Mass actually went beyond what was said in the Vatican II documents, which talk of retaining Latin and the singing of Gregorian Chant (haven't seen that in my time).
   
   VII similarly says nothing about communion in the hand, "for you and for all" instead of "many," altar girls, the removal and destruction of statues, or Mass facing the congregation. The infamous "Spirit of Vatican II," which of course could mean anything you want it to, took care of that.
   
   I dare say John XXIII is rolling in his grave, at the liturgical abuses which have been committed in the name of his Council.

   Posted By: Invictus Maneo

9. "Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites."-Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, Second Vatican Council.
   

   Posted By: Invictus Maneo

10. What trivial reasons you give for not attending Eucharist. What grave sins have the "non-ordained" committed in the examples you have given?

    Posted By: Francis

11. Philip Turnbull,I share your pain.Vatican 2 was supposed to bring in the "Fresh Air" by the Church's "opening of the windows".Unfortunately,the POLLUTION of the outside world entered and reverence and things that were considered sacred gradually were evicted through those very same "windows"! Yes,bring on the reforms!

    Posted By: M.M.

12. Dear Bill Brady
    As the Church infallibly declared in 2000 that Blessed John XXIII is in Heaven, you can be certain that he DOES know what is going on at present. Why don't you pray to him and read his wonderful writings? You will find that Pope Benedict is acting entirely in accordance with, and to bring full fruition to, Blessed John XXIII's vision for the post-conciliar Church.

    Posted By: Peter G

13. It is beyond serious debate that there are powerful influences within the church which are determined to revert to pre-conciliar reform liturgies, especially the Latin Mass. Anyone who thinks otherwise would seem to be in communication with another planet.
    And yes, I agree that liturgies where, as alleged, the ministers of communion fracture the sacred species and distribute it whilst the priest sits idly bye are certainly abuses. Funny thing though, I've been a Mass-goer now for near sixty years and I've never seen any such abuses, nor anything like it. I wonder why such stories seem to surface only when discussion turns to the prospect of putting our liturgical life into reverse?

    Posted By: Greg

14. 'Why would anyone want to join us??' asked Elias Nasser.
    
    Hasn't he noticed that the Come-As-You-Are school of liturgy isn't exactly packing in the young in droves? Young people are not responding to efforts to make litugy and catechesis ever more banal, vacuous and self-absorbed.

    Posted By: PM

15. To Alexander and Invictus Maneo,
    
    John the 23rd called the Council so that the church could relate to the modern world. Do you mean to say that Latin or a literal translation of Latin into English, which we've got with this new translation, fulfils that dream?.And Gregorian chant? Come off it. You must be living on another planet.

    Posted By: Bill Brady

16. Greg, I would have willingly gone to another parish had I not lived in a country town, had no car and had recently suffered a heart attack. Occasionally I travelled by train up to the city to attend Mass at the cathedral which landed me home late in the afternoon. Besides, if I had gone to nearby towns, from all reports, things were no different if not worse.
    
    One person suggested to me to keep in mind that 'the priest's hands were consecrated, not his brain', and while that seemed to me to be a charitable way of dealing with this issue, it did not convince me that anyone is required to put up with an abusive situation.
    
    What sealed my decision was when I telephoned two priests for spiritual comfort. One from the Priestly Society of St Peter - told me abruptly that "he could spare me a few minutes." Then I telephoned a Dominican. He laughed - yes, laughed, and said I had to put up with it.
    
    I have a degree in theology and have taught for over 21 years at Tertiary, Secondary and parish level, here and overseas.
    
    I recognise lack of professionalism and abuse when I experience it.
    
    Thank you for your concern and thanks M.M also for recognising my pain. You are the first and only people who have ministered to me. God bless you. It is sad that I cannot say the same for some of our priests who gave their lives to Christ and His people on the day of the ordination and seem to have spent the rest of their priesthood taking back that gift.
    
    

    Posted By: Phillip Turnbull

17. I was praying for clarification of Pope Benedict's Charity in Truth economic encyclical. The Mass still invites all to share Jesus in communion, but that communion has to spill over into the working day or Charity in truth cannot be engaged in the proper way.
    
    Sometime ago a major church association reported that 70 percent of all church members find it difficult to match up their spiritual life with their work. This a crisis of our times as the value of workers and labor has been degraded to a new lower watermark.
    
    We explore the latent response of religion and philosophy to the global economic arena at http://www.therationale.com and review and react to the Pope's encyclical at http://tapsearch.com/pope-benedict-economic-encyclical based on a varied work history in many different pursuits including working in several factories while attending a Jesuit University full time. The clash of circumstances was evident then and still needs to be clarified and resolved.

    Posted By: Ray Tapajna

18. Thankyou Alexander FH, you give me hope for the future of the Church. Deo Gratias!
    
    From a 35 year old, Post- Vatican II, fellow non-fuddy duddy.
    
    God Bless Benedict XVI

    Posted By: Invictus Maneo

19. The question has been asked: What grave sins have the non-ordained committed? Not so much the non-ordained, but whoever it was who misguided them, ordained or not.
    To those who read Sacred Scripture the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ "it is I Who have chosen you, not you who have chosen Me", as well as the incident in the second book of Samuel to Oza who touched the Ark to prevent it from falling, remind us that certain parts of the Divine Liturgy are reserved to certain people. Not anyone can do anything.
    If certain men are humble enough to take on the task of being chosen to Divine Service, then others should be humble enough to accept the fact of God calling them to that service and not usurp their roles thereby demeaning the call of God and the work and effort the men have spent on preparing themselves for ordination.

    Posted By: Becket

20. I am always bemused on this effort of turning back of the clock to the good old days.
    
    Not unlike all those people who crave for the good old days of the 1950's. They believe they were faultless times. They were not.
    
    The world is a changing place and the Church has to live and teach in the modern world, not a world of centuries gone by. Of course the Church had much more temporal power in that time, and one wonders if it still can't get over that loss of power.
    
    I attended Mass in the Brompton Oratory with all the Georgian Chants, incense and so on. It was totally irrelevant to me and seemed to me more like a Shakespearean production. It was a cold and unfriendly place. ( I remember why attending Mass was a "Sunday Obligation")
    
    Jesus often pointed out the importance of worshipping God and also pointed out the importance of helping our neighbour. Perhaps a bit more effort in helping others and a little less on Ceremony would be a good thing.
    
    

    Posted By: Chris

21. Phillip Turnbull, your experience sounds most distressing ... I'm not the least bit surprised that you were so upset. But at the same time, I regret but I'm not surprised to hear of the shabby way you were treated ... and this is at or near the gist of the issue; namely, clergy who persist in the conviction that they're both the centre and the pinnacle of church life and practice when in fact ,many of them have only the most basic education in liturgy/ritual (cf. how very few of them are active, or even just interested, members of liturgical associations??).
    Significantly in my own case, I thought it telling, and beyond merely peculiar, that during the entire duration of my second theology degree there were no priests doing so much as a single subject, not even as an audit student.
    Consequently, it's not only cynics who question the fundamental motivation underlying the manifest drive to mandate reversion to e.g. the Latin Mass. [As to which, one need not ponder long the motivation of three of four young men ordained priests recently in my diocese who chose to 'say' their first Mass(es) in Latin, one of whom confided to me that he had to spend hours "practising" beforehand because he didn't understand a word of it!

    Posted By: Greg

22. No Bill, the last time I checked my address, it was still on Planet Earth. I’m not sure that a few extra verses of "Here I am Lord" or "Kumbaya" will have more pulling power than Gregorian either.
    
    As for Pope John’s intentions at the Council, and its final implementation, this statement came from Cardinal John Heenan, Archbishop of Westminster, and somebody who both knew John XXIII and participated at the Council:
    
    “Jesus wept over Jerusalem, and Pope John would have wept over Rome if he had foreseen what would be done in the name of his Council.”
    
    Considering the “more relevant” translation of the Novus Ordo has produced 40 years of plummeting Mass attendance and vocations, it would appear that the “more relevance to the modern world” approach has been something of a damp squib. It just doesn't work.
    
    The time has come to restore what the sixties revolutionaries tried to destroy.
    

    Posted By: Invictus Maneo

23. What planet are you on Bill,
    
    Do you really think John 23rd really would envision empty churches with no vocations, sense of sacred or anything that resembles Catholicism.
    
    Your so -called reforms are a failed policy.
    
    No-one is attracted to the Novus Ordo - it is a boring as anything, no-wonder no-one turns up anymore.
    
    Admit your Vatican II church is dying Bill and only traditional and orthodoxy will march on.

    Posted By: Uncle Chop, Chop

24. Yes Uncle Chop Chop,
    You and people of your ilk want the Vat11 church to die.There's no question about that.Fortunately for you, you have people in high places in the church to see it happens.
    And Invictus Maneo,
    Cardinal Archbishop sounds like he is in step with all the other Cardinals who have headed the Con gregation for Worship in recent times - all
    restorationists.As for the current Mass causing attendances to plummet as you assert, where's your empirical evidence for this? What about the forces of the secular world?

    Posted By: Bill Brady

25. And yet again we have a list of comments which show what the main problem of today's church is - the head is trying to dominate the heart - laws over lives.
    
    We have people bleeding in pain, such as Phillip, at how they have been treated and then we have those trying to justify the so-called necessary pain of frightened good Catholics wanting to desperately return to some semblance of tradition, certainty and comfort and inflicting their head and law approach on the dwindling numbers still trying to hang on to the hope of Vatican II.
    
    It grieves me so much that while the head talks, hearts break and those who live by the head and law only, still feel they are being like Jesus. My God, how far wrong we have gone if we really believe this.
    
    This mentality of the 'orthodox' church today is in fact and in spirit, heretical and anti-Christ, but because it seems like they are following law it is believed to be orthodox and Christ-like.
    
    It is Jesus who would be turning in his grave, if he had one.

    Posted By: Oh Yet We Trust

26. I am beginning to wonder how many people have bothered to research the liturgical history of the church? There are many surprises about what was done and not done!
    People should own up to the issue which underlies so many comments - NOSTALGIA. If it is the case say so, it's not right or wrong just your opinion on an issue.

    Posted By: Davidanthony Davies

27. Phillip we need to pray for our priests.
    
    At the same time we need to be discerning and seek the guidance of a good priest who can direct us (spiritual direction). You seem to be aware of this need as you have sought to find a spiritual director. Don’t give up.
    
    I know of a few priests whose charism is spiritual direction to the laity. They are not parish-based and regularly go to country areas. Send me an email greg.guy@idx.com.au
    

    Posted By: Greg Guy

28. I should be delighted to provide evidence. Based just on what is available by googling, the ad2000 and the Catholic Australia websites, weekly Mass attendance in Australia fell from 60% in 1962 to 15% in 2001. No doubt it is even lower now. In Europe, it is closer to 10%.
    
    Religious orders that had been growing healthily prior to the Council were stopped cold in their tracks in 1965. What happened about then. That's right, they had a Council about then, didn't they?
    
    Secular forces most certainly have had an impact, mostly because said Council, as reported at the time, opened the window to let them in!
    
    Incidentally, I provided Cardinal Heenan's quote as a counter to your assertion that John XXIII would be rolling in his grave at any restoration, particularly of Latin. In fact, one of his documents prior to the council reinforced the use of latin and encouraged further studies in it for seminarians.

    Posted By: Invictus Maneo

29. I feel sad when I read the ill-informed comments that somehow Vatican 11 is the cause of the ills of the Church.The Church has always been in a state of change as it adjusted to the situation of the times.
    Those arguing a return to the 'certainty of the Tridentine period ' are kidding themselves big time. The Church can neither be static nor can it regress. John XXIII saw the need for the Church to modernise.Sadly the issues affecting the Church stem from 'modernism' .The fact remains that the majority of the people leaving the Church are well educated 'westerners' who simply can not relate Church teachings to the reality of their lives. I am not including the 'hedonists' in that category,only well meaning God fearing people. Gone are the days where ignorance and fear kept people in the pews.I have vivid memories of the 'fear of hell' that kept me on the straight and narrow in my youth .The God of my childhood was a judgemental God- not the loving God that I have come to understand.
    I must add that I am yet to come across a parish where these so called abuses are happening...I really doubt these are more than a great 'Furphy' by reactionaries who will grasp at any hearsay to push their agenda!
    Gavin

    Posted By: Gavin

30. Numbers attending Church may well have fallen since Vatican II. To suggest that Vatican II has been the CAUSE of this decline cannot be substantiated.
    
    I can make a similarly ridiculously silly statement that there were not many seat belts fitted to cars prior to Vatican II, and now all cars are fitted with them. Has this been CAUSED by Vatican II?
    
    Regular readers of Cathnews will be familiar with story of the young lady who played Mary in the WYD story leaving the Catholic Church to join Hillsong. She was not born at the time of Vatican II!
    
    What are other reasons people stop coming to Church?

    Posted By: Chris

31. Well Chris, considering the object of VII was to find new, more effective ways to teach the Gospel, and to make the Church relevant to the modern world, by what possible measure could it be considered a success? Whatever the cause of the desertion, clearly making it more relevant didn't make Mass attractive enough to keep the people in the pews.
    
    
    Vatican II represents a revolution in the Church, making the post VII unrecognisable from the pre VII. Considering that the plummet coincides exactly with VII, you would have to at least treat the cause theory with some respect, unless you want to go into denial, of course.

    Posted By: Invictus Maneo

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