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Women religious stay silent in Visitation responses

Published: November 26, 2009

Most US women religious are failing to comply with a Vatican request to answer questions in a document from Apostolic Visitator, Mother Angela Millea.

Leaders of congregations, instead, are leaving questions unanswered or sending in letters or copies of their communities' constitutions, NCR Online reports.

"There's been almost universal resistance," said one women religious familiar with the responses compiled by the congregation leaders. "We are saying 'enough!' In my 40 years in religious life I have never seen such unanimity."

The deadline for the questionnaires to be filled out and returned to the Vatican appointed apostolic visitator, Mother Mary Clare Millea, was November 20.

On that day, according to an informed source, congregation leaders across the nation sent Millea letters and, in many cases, only partial answers to the questionnaire. Many women, instead of filling out the forms, replied by sending in copies of their Vatican approved orders' religious constitutions.

The decisions by congregation leaders not to comply follow nearly two months of intensive discussions both inside and across religious congregations, NCR Online says. They follow consultations with civil and canon lawyers, and come in the wake of what some women religious see as widespread support by laity for their church missions.

FULL STORY

Women religious not complying with Vatican study (National Catholic Reporter)

 

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Recent Comments

  1. Seems some of these groups are all 'peace and love' until it comes time to dialogue with the visitator. A bit of discrimination against the Vatican? What are they afraid of?

  2. The motives behind this "visitation" are seemingly unknown, but can be guessed at.
    However, that important issue aside, what is more disturbing is that the present incumbants in the Vatican are so out of touch with the "western" world (and so intimidated by its challenges) that they reflexively rush upon women as somehow to blame for the decline in vocations, as if vocations needs to be the indicator of the integrity of the Church and its mission. Splinters are of greater significance than planks when the need to scapegoat.
    By and large women in the "West" are today free from accountability to the inherent misogyny of the Vatican, yes even Catholic women. But this has not always been so, and for many centuries religious women were treated appallingly by the male hierarchy, perhaps under some misguided and misapplied understanding of women's role in the Body of Christ.
    But now those women who can be got at are, because all that good that they have done does not matter if they do not know their place as women in the church.
    We will never be the Body of Christ until such institutionalized prejudice and psycho-sexual disorder is addressed and erased.

  3. Good, about time women did something to exert themselves rather than just talking about the MEN who run the church walk over them. We are all the People of God not controlled by power hungry prelates and their Institutional Church.

  4. Dear sisters, your courage to stand up against the powers of patriarchy is most admirable. As a Catholic men and layperson I too find the entire approach of this contemporary inquisition- offensive and disingenuous.
    The patriarchy church is not only promoting a form of empire church, it is in fact slipping into irrelevance, it seeks to practice a spirituality of power, control, violence, oppression and coercion- nothing of that is compatible to the radical teachings of our Jesus Christ that is about collegiality of all God’s people (the church, people of God made in God’s image with the Spirit dwelling and working in, with and amongst all).
    I would like to refer readers to a insightful article features by CathNews:
    http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/article.php3?id_article=2658

  5. Holy Father is getting the silent treatment from Holy Mothers.
    Just what sense of Church as community does the Vatican have when it sends out 'please explain' questionnairs? If Rome really wanted to dialogue, I am sure the sisters would give them an earful.

  6. This disobedience is disgraceful. Thankfully for orthodox Catholics, age is not on the side of these women.

  7. So much for their so-called Vow of Obedience! Obviously the Apostolic Visitation is long overdue! What a disgrace!

  8. Then let them leave (officially). Perhaps they'd be happier as government social workers. Let them join Dr. Rowan's modern Episcopal (Anglican) church.
    I hear they are looking for "a few good women".

  9. Well done, sisters. Continue to be inspired by Jesus and remain silent. Abuse of power can only succeed if you give in to the oppressors.

  10. Just shows that they're silly little girls. This is extremely childish.

  11. Have they taken vows of silence?

  12. Congratulations Sisters on your stand; what else would you expect from the males in Rome. Dialogue is not in their vocabulary. Look at the way women have been treated in the Church for centuries.

  13. Perhaps these rebellious women and their supporters should read some Catholic Prophecy:
    http://www.catholicrevelations.org/PR/ven%20bartholomew%20holzhauser.htm

    http://www.catholicrevelations.org/PR/ven%20isabel%20canori-mora.htm

    God is not on these rebellious women's side nor any of their supporter's side. God wins.

  14. It is easy to blame US women religious for their apparent disobedience. The responsibility for their defiance lies squarely on the Church for allowing such things to develop this way in the first place.

  15. Surely sending their constitutions to the Vatican would only highlight just how out of step they are with their own constitutions. No matter. At the rate they are going, perhaps the only point of the surveys would be to let the Vatican know what arrangements it should make to take care of the older sisters in the decades ahead, when there are no longer any young ones to do the job...

  16. The church is a sign and a Sacrament of the The Kingdom of God. Religious life is the prophetical witness to this. Religious life is the witness and expression of such FREEEDOM. If Religious looses that freedom, it is no longer Religious life it is slavery in the Institutional Church. LK4/18 is the Mission of the Church and Religious-TO PROCLAIM THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD. COMPLETE FREEDPOM FOR ALL THE SLAVES. When Institutional church fails to be a sign of such freedom, Religious have to do it. But they have to pay the price for it-Cross and Crucifixion. Congratulations.

  17. Like Jesus was silent many times to Pilate and Herod, sometimes we have to be silent when Institutional Church is not a sign of the Kingdom of God, When it is not proclaiming Lk4/18. But we have to pay the price for it- CROSS AND CRUCIFIXION.

  18. These sisters are an embarrassment. I suspect their founding sisters are rolling over in their graves in horror. These sisters may photocopy their constitutions all they want, but they surely abandonned their promises to their constitutions a long time ago.

  19. Wonder if the women disciples consulted lawyers before following Jesus.
    In the Our Father we constantly pray
    "Thy will be done' but most of the time we mean "Thy will be done if it suits me" or "if I agree with it."
    The unconditional trust in God is very difficult - the women religious (BTW why can't we say "nun" anymore?) are not the only ones having trouble.

  20. Let's get something very straight! The Religious Sisters have their Charters and from my observation are doing a grand job with fewer members and an aging sisterhood. This Directive from Rome from what I have learnt is quite intrusive and very unnecessary. I am not in the least surprised at their response. Disobedience? Not really,they answer to the Lord not the Vatican!
    I think it is well nigh time that the Vatican Officials whom, from what I saw in Rome three years ago, live in a world so removed from reality that it scared me.They need to get out and see the reality of our topsy nervy world as it affects the average Catholic. What pray tell is an 'Orthodox Catholic'? I'd like to meet one!

  21. Interesting how 4 out of the first 6 posters are men and are willing to just kick their sisters out anytime not even knowing any of these sisters personally or their community circumstances, really says a lot about these bigots in our church today doesn't it, their rampant abuse is sanctioned and shameless bigotry is all over the house; shame on you.

  22. Actually, the visitators in this particular case are women, and women religious in particular. And having read the questions in full, I think they are entirely appropriate.

  23. What's the matter, "sisters"? Cat got your collective, tongues? If you want the secular world so much and espouse it with your nutty beliefs and constitutions, why don't you go out there and enjoy it and make your way in it free from the chains of the male dominated hierarchy. Satan chose not to serve as well. Oh but I forgot, you probably don't believe in him..just another one of those literary allegories from the middle ages. Keep on this disobedient path and your likely to meet up with him soon.

  24. It is, and always has been, merely a question of orthodoxy. Are the sisters orthodox? If so, then they have no reason at all not to respond to all inquiries. If not, then let the sisters leave the Church whose beliefs they do not accept. Honesty demands nothing less. To demand that they be accepted by a Church they do not accept, betrays a not altogether healthy state of mind.

  25. I don't give to about 99.99% of nuns in the U.S. Can anybody guess the reason why? I thoroughly check out any Catholic organization or charity requesting money. Again, most do not get anything because of their heterodoxy or heresy.

  26. Not let them leave; make them leave the Catholic church. They are quite welcome to join what's left of the Anglican church which I believe will welcome them with open arms.
    Close their convents and isolate them.
    We don't want these women and we don't need them.

  27. A very interesting response. They've sent in their Vatican approved constititions. Does this imply that they recognise the Vatican's authority over them? How will they respond if the Vatican withdraws approval for their constitutions and perhaps reconstitutes some of these congregations with those members who wish to be faithful to the charism of their respective founders? But it seems that the Vatican wants to understand what went wrong with so many congregations, to understand how they came to be moribund, and avoid the same mistakes in the future.

  28. I don't know what is the exact reason for the Visitation, but surely there are some issues. Why are the nuns disobedient is not clear, because the Church is His Church, but not ours. If they don't want to be part of His Church,why are they calling themselves Catholic? The Pope is in Rome and will stay there! Every Catholic faithful should know that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on the Earth. If you are a Roman Catholic you feel it, especially if you go to Rome and pray in St Peter's Basilica just few meters from St Peter's remains. May be these nuns haven't been there, because I have been and I know that feeling. Some of us, people go aside of Our Church,but it is easy to find the way back,just look in your hearth. And if you don't see anything there-you've lost your way and our Shepard can show it.That is why this Visitation is going.

  29. I'm amazed at the venom being poured out at women that,I'm sure, none of their accusers know. A question to all of the Pavlovian poison saturating this thread: Do you know anything of substance so inspire your misogynist venom? Or are you merely showing the profound lack of Love in your hearts and, therefore, the utter fraudulence of your declared faith?

  30. A few years traveling across the United States I visited a few Religious Communities. In one, which was preparing for a meeting of religious superiors to discuss sexism in the Church, one Sister talking about her own community explained to me: "You don't have to be a feminist lesbian to be a Sister of ......, but it helps."
    Nothing wrong with being a celibate lesbian; nothing wrong with being a reasonable feminist, but I didn't get the impression from Sister that she and I were reading from the same book.
    I did get the impression that some American Catholics see themselves as "American' first and Catholic second. And by "American" they mean - insisting on their rights and freedom. What they seem to forget is that their rights and freedom are not an end in themselves, but for a purpose. It is freedom to do something in the service of the Church and the world. It strikes me as odd that so many of these woman are at odds with the hierarchy of the Church.

  31. There is nothing holy about them anymore.There go about still pretending to be a follower of the religion of the cross.That their cause is above that of the Church!
    That these convents being lied to and led by the feminist movement is becoming very obvious.
    I wonder how naive people are about the infiltration of some convents by Wicca,liberals,rationalist,feminist,to name a few.
    Everyone is conforming to its true color. Indeed,the separation of the sheep and goats.

  32. The three sisters in the picture could not possibly be the type worrying the Vatican. It is those nuns with differents 'habits' that are of concern - habits of dissent, disobedience and susbequent decay.

  33. The stream of those cheering for this display of pride and undocility is predictable.
    I seem to recall that religious all take the vow of obedience because to subject one's own will to the will of a superior, in whom is seen Christ, is part of the path to holiness.
    I wonder if striving for holiness, having a supernatural and not a purely natural and now end, is in the minds of these sisters.

  34. Standing up for their cause is admirable, but what is their cause? What is there to hide? Why the rebelion? No question they do good but for whom? Some of these groups are supported by enemies of the church. Are these sisters being used and manipulated to divide the church?

  35. Congrats, sisters. An appropriate response to an inappropraite questionnaire. Annette, Sydney, Australia

  36. Congratulations to these religious sisters for their quiet 'rebellion' against this unjustified and unnecesssary Visitation.
    How very sad to see the hatred, venom, and self-righteous judgementalism used by some of the posters. The same sort of attitude that drove St Mary's Brisbane and its 1000-strong Catholic congregation out of the Church. How can people like this begin to call themselves followers of the Christ whose central commandments were to love God and love your neighbour?
    It is the challenge of these commandments that inspired so many American religious sisters to serve all God's people in new ministries and in ways that respond to the needs of a changing society.

  37. What a pity these women don't apply the same tactic when they're publicly callenging Church teachings.

  38. Many women's (and men's) religious orders in America (like Australia) are obviously a problem, hence the need for this visitation. However the positive thing is that obviously no one is joining these orders that have drifted a long way from the church. The yongest person in a lot of religious orders is late 50s/early 60s and these orders will simply die out over the next 20 years.

  39. What a tangled web we weave...
    These invent-a-church-ers have no future in the Catholic Church but seem hellbent on forcing Rome to make the pronouncement. I wonder why?

  40. Without obedience, there can be no humility.

  41. I don't know what the best thing to do is - wait until they all die out or expose them now.

  42. If they were in line with the Vatican in their beliefs then they would have no problem with someone asking to explain their position. People with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

  43. Notice the photo has sisters in a habit. My guess is they are not the ones that are resisting. Very surprising, a story from NCR that paints a negative picture of the Vatican and 'nuns in rebellion.'

  44. Several weeks ago at Mass I saw a nun I know in the communion line dressed in a tank top and bermuda shorts. She is not young and is over-weight. Yes, the religious should be investigated becasue of incididents like these. They don't have to wear a habit as in years past but they certainly should be required to dress in a way that identifies them as a nun and as a sign of their vows.

  45. That these nuns refuse to comply is a cynical, an almost sadistic, response to the totally valid and reasonable requests from the Vatican .
    This entire issue would not have been necessary if these nuns had remained faithful Catholic religious. Instead, they are radical femminist dissidents who have promoted an agenda of disobedience and rebellion against Catholic teachings for years.
    In failing to reply, these nuns only re-inforce the belief that these people are no longer really Catholic. It re-enforces the belief that they have almost totally rejected and repudiated what it is to be faithful Catholic nuns.
    As such, the reaction of the Vatican should be the suppresion/disbanding of any and all religious communities of these sisters that have failed to cooperate with the legitimate investigation of the Vatican.
    Considering that these liberal femminist nuns have ceased to be Catholic long ago, their supression will be no loss to the Catholic Church.
    And even if they are not supressed, it won't make much difference. The averaged age of these dissident nuns is past 70. Some communities have a median age approaching 80. So in a few years, they'll all be gone anyway.
    Fortunatly, there are several dozen new, orthodox and traditionalist Orders of sisters wearing traditional habits that have been founded in the USA over the last 20 years. It will take some time, but hopefully they can replace the liberal remnants as they die out....and even more traditionalist Orders can be founded to fill in the gaps.
    I hope the Vatican doesn't take this disobedience lightly. I hope the liberal nuns get the shock of their life when they are all disbanded.

  46. For those who seem to be seeing this as oppression of religious orders by a patriarchical Church, remember that a few years ago the Vatican conducted an investigation of the seminaries in the United States as well. The results showed both commendations and criticisms for these seminaries, and most possibly the same will be done for these orders. This is not out of chauvinism, and if the nuns truly have nothing to hide, let them be honest about themselves and get the questionnaire over with. I saw some of the qustions asked, and honestly, they are not all that bad.
    Honestly, what message is the rebellion sending to the Vatican? Is it one of so called quiet rebellion, that the visitation is unnecessary? On the contrary, the fact that the sisters are even daring to do so only telling the Vatican that something is seriously wrong! The vocations to most of these orders have been dwindling since Vatican II, and our current sisters are aging. It seems like sooner or later these orders are going to disappear, while the more traditional orders are quickly growing and full of younger sisters. Obviously something is wrong with most of the orders, hence the visitation...
    And I say all this as a lay Catholic woman.

  47. Bravo ladies! What are the 'boys' afraid of? Thank God for the Eucharist. Why else would I stay?

  48. If anyone is interested in some stats regarding the gender and religious alignment of the commentators above, read on.
    Orthodox Catholics: 31
    Dissenters: 12
    Female dissenters: 2
    Male Dissenters: 9
    Female orthodox: 8
    Male orthodox: 10
    Orthodox other: 8
    Dissenting other: 1
    "Other" refers to those whose signed their comments with initials or pseudonyms, in this case.
    Of course, all the "women" who have posted could simply be a single man on a mission to cover up the "truth" that the majority of Catholics want to see the Pope change everything to suit them, but I doubt it.
    At any rate, it appears that we catholics faithful to the church have some work ahead of us if we are to reconvert our dissenting sisters and brothers!

  49. I have great respect for religious and if the women religious of the USA have acted in this way, then something is wrong with the request.
    Sr Joan Chittister OSB put it very well in an article at the beginning of this 'consultation', the religious of the USA have been faithful to the Church and have been the faithful of the Church.
    The Vatican needs to apologise and if it thinks it needs an inquiry, ask the religious to carry it out themselves.
    The understanding of being a religious is very different in different cultures, take for instance the symbol of the habit, in the past the habit was the dress of the people they lived among.
    Maybe the tank top and bermuda shorts says more about what they are doing than some would judge the sisters for not doing.

  50. Seriously, we should pray for them, both the Vatican and the female religious, not react with hostility. After all, none of us are in control of this situation at all.
    This is not an issue to be lashing out at people over. I can understand how they feel targeted. Why only and all female religious? I can also understand the concern of the Vatican.
    I will pray for the peace of Christ to be with these people.

  51. Paul Keen: It is most interesting how you exclude the title 'Orthodox' or ‘Catholic’ for that matter from those whom you disagree with, simply calling them as ‘the others’ or ‘dissenters’- those who disagrees with you are excommunicated altogether. No wonder Catholics just do not identify themselves as Catholics anymore, because anyone who doesn’t conform to your narrow worldview or view of Catholicism is no longer counter as a Catholic, and those who have different point from certain part of the hierarchy are also disqualified and excluded or maimed solely as ‘dissenters’. Sad.

  52. It seems that this modern day Inquisition is more about these women forgetting their place in the Church. If they dare to challenge male authority in the Vatican "they are in for it"
    It is so easy to forget what a real contibution to God's people these women make. They run hospitals, hospices, schools, look after refugees and marginalised; the list is endless.
    I cannot help agreeing entirely with Mark J post. Well said.

  53. Fr Mick: The person of Sr Joan Chittister OSB, constitutes the single best argument for the Vatican visitation that I know.

  54. Tank top and bermuda shorts and overweight! A very neat definition of heresy. Using that guideline, there will be quite a few lay people excommunicated from our church.

  55. Angela raises a very good point: that an identical apostolic visitation occurred only recently except it investigated the state of American seminaries and houses of priestly formation. The men were targeted before the women. Does this fact not disprove the ridiculous and anachronistic feminist claims made by so many commentators here?
    The disobedience of these women religious reveals more than any questionnaire possibly could as the sisters proudly declare ‘non serviam.’

  56. A short course in Canon Law would do many of the people posting in this thread the world of good. Canon Law was developed and still operates to protect the interests of various parties in the Church in their disputes with each other - priests with bishops and religious with clergy and the Vatican. It's all clearly spelt out.
    And guess what? In the majority of cases where priests and bishops have been in disagreement in Australia during the past two decades - say 5 major cases to my knowledge - the Roman Court has found against the bishop or, as in several cases, the Cardinal Archbishop of Sydney.
    When it comes to Religious, the Congregational Leaders are acting completely appropriately. For the last 40 years, at the request of Vatican Council 2, all Religious have been involved in the laborious process of reviewing and renewing their statutes and constitutions to achieve the updating asked of them by the Council.
    That work was then submitted to the Vatican's Congregation for Religious and signed off there. That is the Vatican approved way Congregations and the Vatican are to deal with each other in the assessment and review of their lives as Congregations.
    So where does the slide on this thread from completely appropriate behaviour into accusations of disobedience and heterodoxy get any foundation? It doesn't.
    Like a good batsman bowled a bad ball, all the Sisters have to do to such wild and unfounded accusations in this thread is "lift their bat and let it through to the keeper".

  57. Am I missing something here? When I read so many comments against the Visitation, I wonder why some people force a dichotomy between the "nasty old men in the Vatican" and the rest of the People of God. If these sisters (and their supporters) have a problem with the 'Vatican', why don't they just leave and start their own 'church'? Obedience to Jesus Christ through the Community He founded is an integral part of being a Catholic. If you don't like the way Jesus set things up, go.

  58. Here in the US we recently had a story break of a sister discovered to have been a volunteer at an abortion clinic. The sister was unapologetic,
    and only ceased her activities because of the unwelcome attention they brought to the clinic, not because she had a change of heart regarding the
    evil of abortion.
    It is not actually worrying that a sister could 'go off the reservation' like this one. People do stupid,
    sinful things every day, religious included. What astonished and worried me from the news reports was the utter lack of shock, horror or concern on
    the part of her superiors, who evidently had known of her activities for years. In fact, the only concern
    her congregation expressed was that no one presume to tell them they mustn't lend material cooperation to abortion.
    Clearly, the problem isn't an isolated case of a sister gone 'over to the dark side'. Rather, it is
    one of a congregation that condones, harbors, and facilitates her sinful acts. These women are precisely why the Visitation is necessary.

  59. One person here likes to throw around the insult of bigot whenever someone disagrees with his narrow viewpoint. He professes so much openness and charity to others and yet will not show it to those who disagree with him. Double standard there!

  60. It seems to me that in our society people (religious and lay, children and adults) simply fail to understand the meaning of the word obedience. It certainly does not mean "stupidity" and has nothing to do with "intelligence" either.
    So very few people seem willing to listen nowadays.

  61. Tank top and bermuda shorts on an overweight woman (nun) is not a reason for excommunication. The question is about the Vatican investigation of the religious. Public signs of behavior say a lot about ones attitude towards themselves and their vocation and to others. ( I would not have allowed my children to wear such attire to Mass.)

  62. Trish: Your observation is excellent and true, I wonder if it is because there is so much abusive history in that word 'obedience'. Sexual abuse, physical abuse, spiritual abuse, structural violence; many all done under the guise of ‘Obedience’, not reason nor rationality, just a mystical, unholy 'Obedience'.

  63. Unity: what cost? We Catholics all pay a price for unity. These sisters have to be careful taking this stance because they are choosing their personal identity over the call to unity, in the Body of Christ. Does that mean you have to agree with everything that the leaders in Rome say. I don't think so, but you do have to be humble and willing and willing to submit to their leadership.... if you want to be Catholic. You simply can't keep rejecting the facets of Catholic unity, and still want the gift that that unity gives you. It is costly... we all have to show trust and hope in our leaders. Protestantism is the alternative.... and history has shown when people split from the CAtholic Church, they are subject to continual 'splits' and divisions.

  64. More like the Sisters have been caught behind and are arguing with the umpire.
    Perfectae Caritatis gives permission to each congregation to renew itself as it saw fit.
    Nowhere in Canon Law are Sisters permitted to refashion religious life to their own liking in defiance of church teaching and in an effort to steal power from priests and bishops.
    Nowhere in Canon Law is Power permitted to be sought at the expense of faith.
    Nowhere in Canon Law is it permitted to undermine the authority of the Pope or the magisterium.

  65. I think the problem is power. Pope JP2 has broken down local Churches and religious orders and replaced them with people and orders which are Vatican dependent. It is no longer a universal church but Bishops answering to Rome and orders answering to Rome (Opus Dei, Neocats, Falconiarri etc.

  66. TJ: Without doubt, we could never be proud of everything that’s happened in the past and abuse could never be termed “holy”. But I think there’s more to it than that.
    Frankly, true obedience is very difficult because trust is very difficult. To obey, one must submit themselves and trust the other. A vow of obedience would be quite challenging for sure, because in the end a religious must obey their superior – an imperfect human. But their trust should remain in God! Jesus trusted the Father and was obedient to death – this is the sorrow and pain (and joy!) of holiness. Surely in the long run, all difficulties can be overcome with God, with vows remaining intact. Any vow of obedience should never be taken lightly.
    And a further caution: because we are all imperfect humans, we will always be tempted to do things which appear to be good, right and just but which in fact are not. The more one loves God, the more insidious evil and temptation comes. But the means can never justify the end. Professed religious should be aware of this and always be very careful and discerning about their motives before dissenting.
    And finally: sometimes people just don’t want to listen and simply want to do whatever they think. Most of us are guilty of this to one extent or other, it’s part of our human nature. Children try it on parents/teachers, and most of us adults are no different. In doing so we make ourselves “King”. Not good.

  67. Clinton: You are so right. A story relating to a nun working in a clinic you describe and her superiors being aware of it, is shocking and totally unacceptable.
    A soon to be released document on Child abuse in Ireland implicating the Church and Civil Authorities for over 30 years will be very sad reading for us all.
    We will most likely realise that men and their superiors have been involved in a cover up. So we will probable find out that unconscionable behavior is not only resticted to women.

  68. Everybody here seems to rashly leap to the conclusion of assuming the truth of the National Catholic Reporter’s claims based on what it alleges was said by an anonymous “one women [sic] religious familiar with the responses compiled by the congregation leaders” (How would she possibly know what they all said?)

  69. If true, it certainly amply proves why the visitation is desperately needed. Ironic that reportedly the only point on which these Brides of Christ can find “unanimity” is in their rejection of their vows of obedience. And no Gavin this vow does not mean “I obey whatever I decide that “the Lord” is privately telling me”, it means “I obey my superiors, bishop and pope”. That is in the documents of the Second Vatican Council.

  70. If your own boss asked you about your work, would you refuse to answer him?

  71. Mark: In the past 40 years the number of nuns in the US has shrunk by two-thirds, and the average age has risen from mid-30s to over 70. But you think that for the Vatican to finally ask why 40 years later is to “reflexively rush upon women as somehow to blame”!

  72. TJ: Perhaps I spoke too hastily. Perhaps those who have spoken against Mother Angela's visit live in full accordance with Catholic teachings and traditions. If so, I offer them my deepest apologies for my presumption.
    However, there is little that you profess that is orthodox. You keep calling yourself Catholic, but then exclude yourself with what you write.
    Defining people by what they profess, defend, and practice and excluding them from that definition if they don't is pretty common. After all, you won't find too many folks tucking into a steak whilst declaring themselves vegetarian, will you?
    Do we Catholics have a narrow world view? Perhaps we do. But Jesus said that His Kingdom was not of this world, so we have to keep our eye on that goal, namely Heaven. Maybe this realisation of the Truth means we have little choice but to voice the smaller truths, and call a spade a spade, and refuse to call a spanner a spade no matter how Orwellian things might get. If this is narrow, then may God keep those blinkers on us.
    Fear not though! We Catholics aren't totally blinded by the light. On the contrary, it helps us to have a clear view of what's happening here on earth. After all, why else would we Catholics campaign so strongly against abortion? Why else would John Paul II have spoken out so strongly against the invasion of Iraq? Why else do we have the most well-developed educational and missionary charities on earth dedicated to making life for all God's children just that little bit easier?
    The thing that makes us Catholics so lucky and yet so victimised (and literally maimed and martyred) is that we choose to do things Christ's way, not our way. You can too. We are praying for you, you know. We Catholics far from perfect, but we know a good thing when we see one, and we hope that you will too.
    I hope that what I've said makes some sense (and that I haven't made too many glaring errors in grammar and logic.)
    God Bless You,
    Paul

  73. I'm fascinated with the attention given to TJ Lawson's posts, not only on this matter but on everything he says.
    If the Visitation of USA Women's Religious Orders is anything like the 'visitation' of TJ Lawson's posts on this website, then little wonder that the Sisters have remained silent.
    TJ Lawson is, obviously, the Catholic we all need to have in our parishes and families for that matter to keep us from making presumptions about our Church and our Faith.
    That the Women Relgious of the USA are out there in the very difficult areas of society keeps the Church from being presumptious, the exact nature of the downfall of the Church in the USA when it became more concerned with anything but evangelisation. Now that the Men have woken up, the Church will be able to preach the Gospel into the areas where the Women have laboured long and tirelessly.

  74. I find the nuns outrageous on this. Do you really think if I said to one of them in the 3rd grade - no sister, I don't like this assignment, I won't do it, that they would find it acceptable? Would my boss find it acceptable. For those who think it is an abuse of power on the part of men - people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. There are enough true stories of abusive nuns and the misuse of matriarchy out there to give all of us pause. No, this is purely self-serving politics and I, for one, will no longer be financially supporting the sisters which I have done on a regular basis.

  75. Why are so many men commenting on matters to do with Religious Sisters.
    It seems very odd to me!

  76. Perhaps someone has answered this question already and in the "excitement" I missed it - however, has anyone so far posted actually seen/read the dreaded questionnaire?

  77. Marco asked if anyone had seen the questionnaire.
    It can be found on this site:
    http://apostolicvisitation.org/en/materials/index.html

  78. Peter G: I suspect that you know as well as I and many others just how women "dissenters" are spoken of away from the general public. Let's not pretend that such a poisonous reactionary religious culture does not exist and currently flourish. The very fact that the larger article shows that this "visitation" is a consequence of that busy crew of roving reactionary reporters pleading their cause to central office also shows something distinctive. But you know all of this.

  79. Paul Keen: I don't see TJ excluding himself from being Catholic. I see you excluding him from being Catholic, then blaming him for your judgement. So yes, please, do call a spade a spade - and own your own behaviour.

  80. David Davies: When was the stone-engraved Commandment handed down that “Men must remain silent concerning everything that women do or say; but women may comment freely on everything men do or say”?
    Marco: Adeodatus said above “having read the questions in full, I think they are entirely appropriate.”

  81. Mark: Now we’ve descended to the secret conspiracy theory. You somehow know that some unnamed big shots are doing and saying something really really bad in private which they’re not doing and saying in public, but you can’t tell us what it is. (Perhaps “they” will send a mad albino monk to murder you if you tell the “secret”?) I’ve never heard or known of anyone saying anything about a female dissenter which I haven’t also heard them say about a male dissenter. I can’t even imagine what such a thing might be.
    And I’m sure the Vatican knew long before any US whistleblower told them the details that there is something terribly wrong with the state of most religious orders in the USA.

  82. To Patricia & Michael Bernard: I cannot recall a moment in Christ's life when he rejected anyone for not complying. Can you?

  83. To Patricia: Well done, old gal. "Close their convents and isolate them. We don't want these women and we don't need them" is exactly what Henry VIII said and did - and look where that got us!

  84. Peter G: The tone of your writing brought to mind the manner in which I have many times heard women "dissenters" in particular spoken of. Always by an "in group" of clerics and lay people in cleric get up. As for whatever may or not be "terribly wrong" with religious orders in the USA, I doubt that you know any more about such manufactured moral panic than the next punter in the pew here in far away Australia. We need to address our own personal demons and not project them into contexts we actually know nothing about.

  85. Peter G: Please read the Canon Law on Religious Women. I explicitly said Religious Women, not women generally.

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