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Recent Comments

1. The only people who do not know that we're regressing into the unenlightened dark ages of Christianity are the ‘Regressors’/Repressors themselves.

   Posted By: TJ Lawson

2. Is the 'Reform of the Reform' really an attempt 'to turn the clock back 50 years' or a sincere desire to implement the authentic agenda of Sacrosanctum Concilium, an agenda hijacked by modernist leftist-liberals who wrought havoc and destruction upon the liturgy. I think the honest critical mind should be focussing on how to repair the damage caused by the Left over the last 50 years.

   Posted By: Michael Bernard

3. Fr Chupungco seems to conveniently forget that since the church started 'marching with the times and adopting new pastoral strategies', Mass attendance and vocations have plummeted, while scandals have soared.
   The 'new pastoral strategy' of Vatican II has been an abject failure, and thanks be to God that the Pope has apparently recognised the signs.

   Posted By: Invictus Maneo

4. Readers are referred to the article by Rev. Michael G. Ryan “What If We Just Said No?” in which he suggests that dialogue is better than diatribe, as the Second Vatican Council amply demonstrated.
   So let the dialogue begin. Why not let the priests who are on the front lines and the laypeople who pay the bills (including the salaries of priests and bishops) have some say in how they are to pray?
   If you think the idea has merit, he invites you to log on to the Web site www.whatifwejustsaidwait.org and make your voice heard. If the bishops know the depth of concern, perhaps they will not feel so alone.

   Posted By: Margaret Knowlden

5. 'Marching with the times' is an unfortunate choice of language as a criterion for any aspect of the Church's mission, and even more anomalous coming from 'a world-renowned expert in liturgical studies'.

   Posted By: John

6. Another 'expert' telling us how to worship. It seems to me that a great deal of the liturgical change over the last 40 years has been brought about by so-called experts imposing their ideas or manipulating the unsuspecting laity, rather than being genuine organic growth coming from the people themselves. And like the good sheep we were brought up to be, we just followed the 'leaders'. I don't recall ever being asked for my opinion about them. I'll be a sheep no longer.

   Posted By: Matthew Dewar

7. Invictus Maneo: Is it possible that there are other factors other than your conclusion of fault. Perhaps the emerging information technology, and the recognition of basic civil and political rights and the prolific reading of the masses have more to do with it than a format of liturgy? People being informed themselves perhaps?
   I don't see people flocking to regressive forms of liturgy. Just look at Hillsong.

   Posted By: TJ Lawson

8. These 'radicals' die a long and tedious death, don't they?
   Most of the people who say they are 'moving with the times' are woefully out of date.
   News flash: It's not the 1970s anymore. You move on. Thankfully, it looks like the Church is.
   Also, another reason to avoid the Broken Bay Institute.
   

   Posted By: Robert

9. Is Fr Chupungco suggesting that Pope Benedict 'lacks an historical and cultural approach to the liturgy'? Or is Fr Chupungco wanting to turn the clock back to the liturgical aberrations that followed Vatican II? His talk of ecclesial obedience sounds hollow. The reform of the reform is not a reform of Vatican II, but of Fr Chunpungco's mistaken interpretation of it's liturgical directives.

   Posted By: Paulmac

10. I believe the term 'expert' is used very loosely these days. In matters of Liturgy surely the faithful of the Church need to be consulted. This was one of the great insights of Vatican II: the acknowledgement of the role of the Laity in all Church matters...the opinion of experts worries me. Liturgy is about the Laity.

    Posted By: DeeWBee

11. Invictus Maneo (IM) seems oblivious to the first lesson in the school of logic: post hoc ergo propter hoc. This false logic says that if B follows A then B must be due to A.
    Hence Vatican II happened first and mass attendance has fallen since: therefore falling mass attendance is secondary to Vatican II.
    What IM cannot tell us is that, if the reforms of Vatican II had not occurred, whether the Church would merely be a place of just historical interest with completely empty pews (recall the words of Blessed John XXIII: we are not museum keepers).
    As for scandals: IM is clearly unaware of the massive abuse problems that occurred before the reforms of Vat II were ever heard of.

    Posted By: Elias Nasser

12. A Google search of Fr Anscar Chupungco indicates he is a man of great Liturgical learning and respected by the Vatican, as he has taught at the Pontifical Liturgical Institute in Rome for more than 20 years. He certainly does not deserve Matthew Dewar’s inverted commas “expert” put-down, nor Michael Bernard’s cynical assumption that he does not know the true spirit of Sacrosanctum Concilium (but you do, Michael?). Invictus Maneo, you might “remain unconquered” for now, but with your concept of cause and effect, be very careful crossing the road. Fr.Anscar makes a lot of sense in adapting liturgical practice to reflect sacredness of the world we currently live in.

    Posted By: Boutros Neru

13. Elias Nasser: Thank you!
    Michael Bernard: What about the repressed, rightist-conservatives who want the People of God to regress into the darkness of the fear and loathing of pre-Vatican II thinking.
    Let's ban women from the sanctuary; let's get rid of lay-readers, lay Ministers of Communion; altar girls etc. let's get back to anti-Semitism; to Pius IX's syllabus of Errors. Let's stop RC's from entering other Christian places of worship.
    Let a RC who is marrying a non-RC marry in a side-chapel but not in front of the main altar. Why not get back to a bit of torturing etc (not much mind you since we have become a bit more civilised).
    Let's put the Holy Spirit back in the bottle with lid firmly secured.
    Matthew: Continue to be a sheep since the sheep feed the hungry etc in the Lord's parable. But the mindless obedience of an uneducated People of God? Goodbye and good riddance. The People of God have the right to be heard (is this not Canon Law?)
    Paulmac: What about the liturgical aberrations that pre-dated vatican II.
    From what I've seen they were much worse. To reform the reform is, of course, nonsense and needs to be seen for what it is. I am very concerned about Bp Joseph Ratzinger's lack of sensitivity and lack of empathy. Then, someone who has been 'entombed' in the Vatican all these years perhaps has no choice!

    Posted By: Francis

14. Elias and Boutrous: You might well argue that Vatican II didn't cause the plummet - fair enough.
    However, you would have to agree that in spite all the talk of a 'New Springtime' in the church, VII has been spectacularly unsuccessful in a) delivering this new springtime and b) at least arresting the free fall.
    I submit that the answer to the problem is not more of the same trendy agenda that has hijacked the church for the past 40 years, and which the good Fr Chupungco seems to promote. If it hasn't worked for 40 years, there is no reason to suggest that it will in future.
    Boutrous: Still unconquered :)

    Posted By: Invictus Maneo

15. Fr Chupungco was referring to 'the inability to fuse together the two basic concepts of Vatican II’s liturgical renewal, namely sound tradition and legitimate progress.' This is a man who respects both tradition and progress. His is a balanced voice we must listen to. This is what he said: “The long and short of it is that liturgical reform requires serious academic work, not mere romantic attachments to the past that close the eyes to the reality of the present time. The drive for legitimate progress makes us run towards the realisation of Vatican II’s liturgical reform, but we should not run as if we did not carry on our shoulders the weight, both heavy and precious, of sound tradition.”

    Posted By: Charles

16. Liturgical practice has to take into consideration of the cultural expression of the faithful who worship. Otherwise it is imposed on something which is alien, colonising. The reemphasing of rubrics which are, to the Asians and Africans, Western, is turning the clock backward. We have been able to worship God much richer and more reverant through the way we celebrate our liturgies since Vatican II. Fr Chunpunco is right.

    Posted By: Dominic

17. Has Fr Chupungco read Sacrosanctum Concillium? No where in that seminal document for post-conciliar liturgy was there ever a call for an end to Latin, Gregorian chant etc. Nor did that venerable document endorse the wholesale iconoclasm that occurred in the late 1960s and 1970s. As far as I am concerned liturgists are the terrorists of the Church and the less of them there are the better!

    Posted By: Fr Bernardo Gui OP

18. Invictus: It would appear that you are no student of statistics, by trying to link Vatican II, with falling Church attendances.
    Perhaps global warming can be blamed on Vatican II also.
    And as for cleical abuse, I can assure you it was well and truly around well before Vatican II.
    

    Posted By: Chris

19. The 'Reform of the Reform' the New Missal will come to be known as the 'Grate Myscake!

    Posted By: Davidanthony Davies.

20. Does Father Gui OP intend to burn them?

    Posted By: david anthony davies

21. Newcastle, that jewel of Catholic spirituality? Let's face it, Newcastle isn't quite Ravenna or Byzantium. It's not even Sydney or Melbourne but I guess that's the point. Had it been Sydney or Melbourne in this particular case two Archbishops who know a little about liturgy (seem to remember Hart is on ICEL while Cardinal Pell has done some work on liturgy while at the CDF) might have had something to say. Still Dom Chupungco might well be the next Dom Gregory Dix or indeed the next Fr Josef Jungmann SJ although that seems unlikely too. A quick Google search doesn't yield much other than the good man seems to be a fan of holding hands during the Lord's Prayer. Now I enjoy holding my daughter's hand singing Ring a Ring a Rosie as part of her swimming lessons; it's not, however, something I find particularly edifying in church. In other words it seems Dom Chupungco is peddling the same drivel we have had to endure since that miserable missal of Paul VI turned up in our parishes and Broken Hill is engaging in another group huge of self delusion. That is it would appear to be another call to drag the liturgy down to our level rather than celebrate a liturgy that raises us up to holiness.
    I wonder why some keep insisiting on the failed enterprise of dumbing down in an effort to embrace the world. The world is quite happy doing all the hideous things the world does. Stooping to its level only means we are like the world but less interesting. Why would the world want to embrace us when we have only a poor shadow of itself to offer. We need to inspire with the things the world doesn't have but craves.
    What worries me though is the fear that many so called liberals will insist upon pushing what is obviously a failed enterprise because they are too vain to admit it has been a failure. I fear they would rather see the Church shut up shop altogether than admit they are wrong. Now we can all hedge responsibility about the obvious decline of the last 30 odd years. It wasn't our falt, it was the world that change; but I can't help but think of the Holy Father's words to the religious about change being done for those who never came alientating and disillusioning those who were left.

    Posted By: daniel_mcglone@yahoo.com

22. Francis: Would you kindly show the common courtesy of referring to the Pope by his proper title (not that it would make any difference to your absurd assertion of his entombment in the Vatican.)

    Posted By: John

23. What a blessing God has given in Fr Chupungco! Participation in the liturgy and everything required for that is precisely what the Holy Spirit of God prompted in the hearts of the Council Fathers.
    These Bishops were like Moses when he returned to God's People after the Sinai theophany: unable to be tolerated by the people because the glory of the Lord still shone from them.
    Yes, their leadership seemed for the most part to fail them. Now with the distance of time we can open to the stunning reality of the unheard of possibilities of God's love.
    Jesus lost a lot of followers once he revealed our need to eat his body and drink his blood. Same thing happening now.

    Posted By: Aloysia

24. John: I thought 'bishop' is his proper title after all he is 'Bishop of Rome'. Other titles: pope, eminence, excellency, Most reverend.
    Perhaps we should just ditch them. I'm sure Jesus doesn't think much of them anyway and even spoke against his followers using them.

    Posted By: Francis

25. I suspect those who hate Vatican II also hate the fact that it refers to other Christians as our 'sisters and brothers'. They also hate the fact that it opens salvation to other Christians; to Jews; to those who have never heard of Christ and even to athiests etc etc. They hate the fact that it has cut us from the loathing of the past and the arrogant self-righteousness of pre-vatican II R Catholicism.

    Posted By: Cobber

26. From the numerous and verbous responses to this article regarding proper prayer and liturgy, I wonder whether the words from the letter of St James might not worth considering:
    If one thinks himself to be religious, not retraining his tongue, but seducing his heart, his religion is in vain.

    Posted By: Becket

27. I knew Daniel's belittling comments about Newcastle rang a bell.And then I remembered those famous words from Scripture: Does any thing good come out of Galilee?

    Posted By: Paul Gleeson

28. It is nice to hear people talk of the issues raised by Fr. Anscar Chupungco in his speech in BBI. Though sometimes I feel that some comments were unfair, inasmuch as they seem to go beyond the issues, attacking now the person. But I know that sometimes, things are better understood if one would refer to the person. Fr Bernardo Gui OP asked: Has Fr Chupungco read Sacrosanctum Concillium?
    Reverend Father, I can assure you that he has not oly read SC, but he knows better and very familiar with its spirit. When Vatican II was convened, he was there being taught by the SC's framers, the periti of the council. He even had the chance of talking with them, not only in the classroom, but even at the corridors and gardens of Sant'Anselmo. That was a great privilege for the man, until such a time, that he was called to be part of the faculty. His professors became his colleagues. Now, we may ask: what is Aant'Anselmo? Or where is Sant'Anselmo? Or even Newcastle? Let's face it, Newcastle isn't quite Ravenna or Byzantium. It's not even Sydney or Melbourne. Or I may add: even Bethlehem? It "isn't quite Ravenna or Byzantium. It's not even Sydney or Melbourne. O little town of Bethlehem ... Yes, one may be right to say that 'Still Dom Chupungco might well be the next Dom Gregory Dix or indeed the next Fr Josef Jungmann SJ although that seems unlikely too,' but at least, he recognizes and pays respect to the people who have been ahead of him and planted the seeds of liturgical renewal. 'Has Fr Chupungco read Sacrosanctum Concillium?' Fr Bernardo Gui OP asked. May I now turn the table, may I now ask you Reverend Father? Have you really read the article of Fr. Chupungco? Because, correct me if I am wrong: You are right in saying that: 'No where in that seminal document (SC) for post-conciliar liturgy was there ever a call for an end to Latin, Gregorian chant etc. Nor did that venerable document endorse the wholesale iconoclasm that occurred in the late 1960s and 1970s.'
    But there has not been a line or nowhere in the article that goes in that direction. It would be unfair if one would be putting words in the mouth of another person, if he has not said it or meant it. Fr, I understand that you are a Dominican. I do not know why you made remarks, like: 'As far as I am concerned, liturgists are the terrorists of the Church and the less of them there are the better!'
    I don't know whether you are serious about this. Because as far as I know, a great promoter of liturgical renewal was a Dominican by the name of Yves Congar. Have you heard of Pierre-Marie Gy? He was a also a Dominican, a great liturgist, who was part of the Consilium. I have a great respect for dominicans, like Thomas Aquinas, Chenu, Lagrange, Radcliffe, for I was also formed in the Dominican tradition. I know that they work for the good of the Church, in the same way as these benedictines and Jesuits work for the good of the Church. Liturgists work also for the good of the Church. Let us not belittle them!

    Posted By: from the Philippines

29. Christ must be terribly offended with how ‘pious’ Catholics and ‘lovers’ of the Liturgy insult and attack one another.
    Let us be mindful that the Liturgy aims to unite the people in worshiping and in glorifying God. If we are not united, we do not render God due honour. Thus, if we truly love the Liturgy and the Church, then we must live this spirit of unity and charity towards one another.
    Our Lord taught us and commanded us to love. And that, I think, is what ultimately matters. These matters with regard to the liturgy that we are debating about are really trivial compared to our duty and call to love.
    Do you think, my friends, that at the end of our lives, Christ would examine whether we celebrated mass in Latin or in the vernacular? Or whether we were 100% faithful to the rubrics or made adjustments to suit the needs of the faithful?
    Christ will only look at our hearts, and how it loved.
    

    Posted By: PIL

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