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1. So Tony Abbott gave an honest picture of his emotions and said 'I try to treat people as people and not put them in pigeon-holes'. What is the problem?

   Posted By: Kyle

2. Why do we feel that trying to live a moral life in line with the teaching authority of the Magisterium is so bad?
   I have no problem with Mr. Abbott's comments. Political correctness will destroy our society.
   Another thing, why is the homosexual community so upset? If they demand that we should live the life we are called to live, why would they have a problem with someone opposing their lifestyle?
   They are vocal that it's natural, we are vocal that it's not.

   Posted By: Bee Jay

3. I think Tony Abbott is trying to reach out to Gay and Lesbian People but due to his conservative Catholic attitudes he is finding it hard to do.
   I remember a Gay friend telling me years ago: 'God does not make trash'.

   Posted By: bill

4. Who knew that pigeons could be so threatening?

   Posted By: MJ

5. Bill: You are correct, God does not make trash, but all humans are born with the wounds of original sin which we inherited from our First Parents. Consequently, all humans have wayward appetites as a result, including sexual appetites, that need to be subjected to reason through the help of God's grace.
   The homosexual inclination is just one example of disordered sexual desire, among various heterosexual disorders. With God's grace, and despite the difficulties, all sexual disorders can be healed. I know this from my own experience.

   Posted By: Michael Bernard

6. Why should Tony Abbott feel threatened?
   This old fellow's memory goes back to the onset of AIDS when the homosexualy community was outraged at being prevented from donating blood because of the potential health risks.
   The homosexual community continues to push for entry to areas where they can assert their agenda, e.g. Catholic schools.
   

   Posted By: Pat Healy

7. Bee Jay: Please read the Bible and the Magisterium. Catholic teaching does not say homosexuality is against the church's moral teaching. The church recognises that homosexuality can be the result of either nature or nurture; either way it is a neutral condition.
   In my case, I have chosen to be homosexual.

   Posted By: Sebastian

8. Let's hope Tony Abbott explains his attitudes about homosexuality more, so that the many many gay people in Australia don't feel as threatened as they do by the comments made by the present Pope. Yet we can now see even the Vatican has lots of gay people in its ranks.

   Posted By: Peter

9. I agree with what Tony Abbott said. Homosexuality does challenge the correct order of life. I think there are many reasons why homosexuality is so prevalent now - medical and cultural. No, God didn't make trash, but he did give us the right to choose right or wrong. The teaching in the Bible about the homosexual act is pretty straight forward.
   We all need to remember that just because something 'feels' right, doesn't mean that it is right. Young people are struggling with their sexuality because there is simply too much out there that is deemed to be OK. We need to get in line with what God says is OK.

   Posted By: Karyn Warren

10. Sebastian: You challenged me to read the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding homosexuality. I have and here are my findings:
    Romans: 27b men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.
    CCC:2357- Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that 'homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered'. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
    Now we both know where the Church stands. Remember, God will forgive you.

    Posted By: Bee Jay

11. As young people who are challenged constantly by the media and the issue of homosexuality, we are often confronted by the views of the church. We should not be quick to take some parts of the Bible literally, and then interpret other parts for ourselves. For example, in the Bible homosexuality is an abomination, but so is eating prawns (book of Leviticus)! As well as this people in society are willing to kill people for their homosexuality.
    Why should Tony Abbott feel threatened when homosexuals face persecution and physical violence each day, although the Bible forbids this?
    God loves everyone and accepts everyone, no exceptions.

    Posted By: Year 12 Students

12. As a gay person working in a lay position for the Church, I find Tony Abbott's comments very disturbing and threatening. If it weren't for the number of gay persons working in Church offices and in political party offices, neither would function as well as they do.
    A bit of appreciation of the gay role should be being said not the rubbish by Abbott. Mr Abbott should be concerned about the number of gay votes he is going to lose with comments like this.

    Posted By: Lyndon

13. Dear Year 12 students: I wonder whether it is a Catholic school that you are writing from. I would hope that your RE teacher is able to explain the teachings of the Church with regard to homosexuality and why it considers it against the natural way God created man and woman.
    You are right that God loves everyone, but the reality is that we are all capable of sin, and sin separates us from God.
    Sexual sins - whether they be heterosexual or homosexual acts - separate us from God. Homosexual sexual acts are sinful because they are not in keeping with God's vision for sex: that sex has at its centre the purpose of being unitive and procreative.
    There are many good websites, books and materials you might want to read to help you delve more deeply into this subject - and help you to understand why the Catholic church considers sex outside of the lifelong union of marriage (between a man and woman)is a sin.
    Can I suggest you ask your teacher to contact the John Paul II Institute for some information on Theology of the Body. This should broaden your understanding.
    p.s. 'God accepts everyone' is a bit simplistic. God loves everyone, but he does not 'accept' our sinful behaviour, He constantly calls us on to be better people, to be careful how you use the term 'accepts'. It could give the impression, we have no responsibility to grow in holiness.
    

    Posted By: c.d.

14. Michael Bernard: You are probably right that 'all sexual disorders can be healed', especially homophobia.
    
    

    Posted By: Mike B

15. Bee Jay: Your references refer to homosexual acts, not homosexuality itself, which is, like heterosexuality, morally neutral. Neither sacred scripture nor the teachings of the Magisterium via the Catechism provide a basis for this confusion of yours.

    Posted By: Joan Seymour

16. Shellfish and crustaceans were off the menu when Moses was around because people died when they ate them. Today we call this food poisoning. So it was,in the absence of deep freezing to preserve food, a logical prohibition.

    Posted By: Lewis P Buckingham

17. Catholic attitudes, political correctness, the Bible and Magisterium, threatening pigeons, original sin the church's moral teaching, abominations and eating prawns and Leviticus not to forget Prime Minister in waiting Tony Abbott, all on one page in relation to homosexuality. It could be worse I guess.
    The state we're in, and all things pointing to Rome at this time, God knows where we're all going to end up.

    Posted By: L Newington

18. So Tony Abbott gave an honest picture of his emotions and said 'I try to treat people as people and not put them in pigeon-holes'. What is the problem? I agree with Kyle
    Radio and the newspaper reporters take quotation out of context without referring to his following comments.

    Posted By: Catherine

19. Tony Abbott's comment is open to interpretation. Either he was saying that he felt threatened by the thought of gay men hitting on him or he perhaps felt threatened by the idea of : gay marriage, gays adopting children, the gay lifestyle being promoted to children etc.
    Really, the media loves to blow nothing up into something. Many straight men are not comfortable around gay men.
    Many people are not comfortable with the idea of gay marriage, gays adopting children etc.
    He has a right to his opinion. He is not advocating the persecution of gays, so relax

    Posted By: catherine

20. Mike b: The term 'homophobia' is an invention of the politically correct to intimidate those who uphold the sacredness of sexuality.
    I hate or fear no one, whatever their sexual orientation. Nevertheless, I stand forever with CCC 2357-58-59.
    We should all rise above name calling.

    Posted By: Michael Bernard

21. There's a big difference from feeling uncomfortable to feeling threatened. I'm quite disappointed at the lack of love shown on these posts - it's quote after quote rather than love.
    As a gay person myself, I'm upset at the attitude of many not only catholics but people in general who claim to be religious.
    I must say it's great to hear also from a student/youth as well - the church of our future.

    Posted By: Stephen

22. The Bible also says those who commit adultery should be stoned!
    If your arm, leg, foot, causes you to sin cut it of! Pluck your eye out if it causes you to sin!
    Some should have a mill stone put round their neck and be cast into the sea!
    Find out the background, the language spoken, the cultural back ground, the social nuance, and we might have a more informed debate.
    Literalism and fundamentalism are the curse of religious belief systems. They often create a message which is barely human, never mind religious!
    Thankfully, pigeons can fly!!

    Posted By: david anthony davies

23. How to interpret Bible texts has become part of the discussion here. Catholics, unlike protestant Christians, don't believe that Bible interpretation is left up to the individual.
    So that we have a common understanding of Biblical texts, Catholics have something called the teaching Magesterium which is the common teaching that the leaders of the Church develop after centuries of discussion, debate and prayer.
    As a Catholic, my first 'point of call' about a controversial issue is to seek out the official Catholic teaching and read the underlying reasoning behind it. I don't simply read the Bible passage and draw my own conclusions. I was so surprised, when I first read a Papal Encyclical, to find them to to be quite easy reading, and full of information that gave flesh to the bones, of a teaching.
    There is heaps of good information about why the Catholic Church teaches as it does about sexuality. I think it offends anyone who feels that their sexual choices are only their business... whether heterosexual or homosexual... but it is life to those who seek to grow in holiness.

    Posted By: c.d.

24. We can use the Bible to justify rape, slavery, and incest. You can argue all you want about what others said and did and what it means. I like to look at what Jesus did when confronted with a same sex relationship.
    If I look at Matthew 8:5-13 I find Jesus supported same sex couples. It was not a disorder. He did not judge them. He did not banish them. He loved them.
    The Greek word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.
    From our days in Sunday school, many of us are familiar with the Gospel story where Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. This story is recorded in Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. In Matthew, we are told that the centurion came to Jesus to plead for the healing of his servant. Jesus said he was willing to come to the centurion’s house, but the centurion said there was no need for Jesus to do so — he believed that if Jesus simply spoke the word, his servant would be healed. Marveling at the man’s faith, Jesus pronounced the servant healed. Luke tells a similar story.
    Just another miracle story, right? Not on your life!
    In the original language, the importance of this story for gay, lesbian, and bisexual Christians is much clearer. The Greek word used in Matthew’s account to refer to the servant of the centurion is pais. In the language of the time, pais had three possible meanings depending upon the context in which it was used. It could mean “son or boy;” it could mean “servant,” or it could mean a particular type of servant — one who was “his master’s male lover.” In the context it refers to His masters male lover. Just as women were brought as wives at the time same sex couple did the same.
    So the centurion approaches Jesus and bows before him. “Rabbi, my . . . ,” the word gets caught in his throat. This is it — the moment of truth. Either Jesus will turn away in disgust, or something wonderful will happen. So, the centurion clears his throat and speaks again. “Rabbi, my pais — yes, my pais lies at home sick unto death.” Then he pauses and waits for a second that must have seemed like an eternity. The crowd of good, God-fearing people surrounding Jesus probably became tense. This was like a gay man asking a televangelist to heal his lover. What would Jesus do?
    Without hesitation, Jesus says, “Then I will come and heal him.”
    The Bible changes with many translations to suite the time. You have to remember the word homosexual only came about in the 1850's. The hate for homosexuals followed the rise of the Evangelical version of Christianity.
    Remember the greats such as Micheal Angelo, openly writing letters to his male lovers. He was not condemned like some here would like. He was welcomed in the Church and look at what he gave us. Perhaps some people here need to find Jesus and look at what he did a bit more carefully.

    Posted By: Dave

25. Phobia is an irrational fear of something. One can follow the Church's teaching in regard to same sex attraction without being in any way homophobic. The Church's teaching is perfectly rational and founded on love. Love the sinner, not the sin. Just as a mother loves every child even when one is challenging, so too Holy Mother Church loves all souls in her care.The gay lobby constantly tries to make out they are being discriminated against when it is simply not true.
    Sin is being discriminated against. There is no special dispensation for same sex attracted souls to abandon chastity They are in exactly the same position as all cathoilcs who do not enter the married state.We are asked to strive to live pure lives. The fact that many people are choosing to ignore this teaching does not change the teaching.

    Posted By: Bernadette

26. Dave: thanks for your well-considered and written entry. It is wonderful. The only thing I could add to this are comments on this issue by Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a true living saint if ever there was one. (These are taken from Google)
    Tutu has increased his criticism of conservative attitudes to homosexuality within his own church, equating homophobia with racism. Stating at a conference in Nairobi that he is 'deeply disturbed that in the face of some of the most horrendous problems facing Africa, we concentrate on 'what do I do in bed with whom'.[86] In an interview with BBC Radio 4 on 18 November 2007, Tutu accused the church of being obsessed with homosexuality and declared: 'If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God.'[87]
    Tutu has lent his name to the fight against homophobia in Africa and around the world. He stated at the launching of the book 'Sex, Love and Homophobia' that homophobia is a 'crime against humanity' and 'every bit as unjust' as apartheid. He added that 'we struggled against apartheid in South Africa, supported by people the world over, because black people were being blamed and made to suffer for something we could do nothing about; our very skins...It is the same with sexual orientation. It is a given'.[88]

    Posted By: Chris Amory

27. Michael Bernard: Homosexuality has not been considered a disorder by the healing professions since the early 1970s. Catholic catechism's assertion that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered is as backward as denying that tobacco use is a health hazard.

    Posted By: AJ

28. Dave: Your interpretation of Mt 8:5 and the meaning of pais is sheer conjecture to justify your stance and proves little. It is almost a blasphemous interpretation and insults Jesus’ action of healing.
    How do you know that, if what you believe is the intent of the story, that Jesus did not cure the servant of his homosexuality? Those who oppose the Church’s teaching invalidate themselves as they disbelieve that its teachings are guided by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit can never contradict the formal moral teaching of the Church.
    If that were the case then none of the Church’s faith and moral teachings have any ground whatsoever as they would be no better than human laws.

    Posted By: Dan

29. John Paul II said: It is only in the marital relationship that the use of the sexual faculty can be morally good. A person engaging in homosexual behavior therefore acts immorally. To choose someone of the same sex for one's sexual activity is to annul the rich symbolism and meaning, not to mention the goals of the Creator's sexual design'.

    Posted By: Eamon Hatley-Smith

30. Dan: The translations of the Bible have varied according to the times they have been written, with some attacking people who are homosexual and some not, depending on who of course did the translations. The word homosexual did not exist until recent history as I mentioned. That is not say those that translated the Bible were all not well intentioned, but they bring with them their own views of the society of the time they lived.
    Also with regard to your explanation homosexuality does not leave you sick and dying. The translation of the word in question is agreed by many scholars.
    Many churches around the world now believe the Bible does not condemn homosexuals and actively welcomes such people. Even in Australia not every Catholic Priest agrees with the official view from the Vatican.

    Posted By: Dave

31. Dave: I have read thoughtfully what you have written but it seems to me that the passage you specify could not have been written to show Jesus' approval of homosexual acts.
    I have no opinion of whether the centurion's was in a relationship with his servant or not and I don't think that is the point of the passage. We repeat the words of the Centurion at every Mass - Lord I am not worthy to receive you - because of his admirable faith and because we are accepting that Jesus can also be with us here now in the Mass.
    There are many examples in the New Testament of Jesus healing people because their faith opens them to it. Never is it inferred that he does it to demonstrate justification of human actions.
    In fact, His ultimate action was to die for our sins. He heals simply because the faith people have in Him gives Him the ability to do so. Was Jesus more likely to withhold help from any person who came to him for help than say a medical doctor would?
    Does Jesus infer that he will withhold the living water from the unmarried woman by the well if she asked? No, he says he would give it to her freely if she asked for it. He says that he has come to heal the sick and there is not one single account of Jesus eternally condemning anybody for their actions prior to His death and resurrection. There is hope in this for all of us.
    Why, because God has given us free-will, time and space so that we can grow to love Him.
    Jesus calls us all to Him and asks that we place our faith in Him. The answer to the question 'What must I do to inherit Eternal Life' is going to be different for every person. but we all must repent, and then we must follow Him. There is no room for homophobia in this message but to give homosexual relationships the equivalency of marriage, the only relationship that is a sacrament in the Church, the Church is being asked to do what Jesus did not do.

    Posted By: Steven

32. Steven: I believe the meaning of the text is as I expressed. That does not mean to say I believe that it says anything about gay marriage but the way some people lived. I do agree that there is no room for homophobia in the text.
    Rather the acceptance of two people who happen to be in a same sex relationship. This is of course not the only text that backs up the notion that Jesus was much less discriminating then we are today. It is but one example of many. The fact the Centurion was a Roman and to Jesus a foreigner, enlightens us much about the way we should be treating others from different cultures, and who have a different way of life. Jesus just accepted this person and did not judge.
    Passages can read differently given the more accurate translations of many words we now know. As we well know the chapters were only added to the text much later.
    A lot of events and meanings are lost in translation due to this. Jesus was not "confronted" and did not go on about most people being 'confronted'. He did not curse the person or want them locked up for years either as they were a foreigner. Here he accepted the situation. My conscience, I assure you, is clear on this.

    Posted By: Dave

33. Tony Abbott 'feels a bit threatened' by homosexuality. Based on some of the attacks in these comments by the pro-homosexual, anti-catholic brigade, it's easy to see why.

    Posted By: Michael

34. Dave: your interpretation of Mt 8:5 is not valid becuase it contradicts the moral teaching of the Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit.
    It would seem to me that the soldier in his statement, 'Lord I am not worthy', admits his sinfulness. His faith in the power of Jesus to heal the servant he cares for is what Jesus recognises. Jesus is fully aware of the sinfulness of the soldier. Remember Jesus came to heal and forgive sinners. In this situation there is sin as well as sickness and Jesus heals both. It is a story for gays to admit their sinfulness and seek the healing and loving forgiveness of Jesus.
    Most of the commentators in this forum who reject the gay lifestyle have stated their love for the sinner not the sin. Jesus does the same.
    This story does not show Jesus accepting the gay lifestyle but actually showing his willingness to forgive gays if they can state like the soldier, 'Lord I am not worthy.'

    Posted By: Dan

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