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Recent Comments

1. How many soup kitchens, hospitals, nursing homes, schools and refugee services does the Green Party run? How many counselling services? How's their practical history with the homeless?
   The Cardinal Archbishop, whether conservative or not, is responsible for hundreds of these.
   We have not been left with a definitive understanding of Christ's view on same sex marraige but he was a Jew of his time and the writers of the gospels would have understood it as so irrelevant as to be beyond comment.
   Christ forgave sinners, he didn't condone their practices.

   Posted By: Peter S, East Hawthorn Vic

2. The hide of this Brown fellow. The Church should speak out more on these types of people.

   Posted By: R.B.Meppem Sydney

3. From this article I have noted:
   1. Bob Brown looks like a priest.
   2. Bob Brown speaks like a priest.
   3. Bob Brown makes sense, and ipso facto... I will vote Green in the Senate.
   
   What do others think?

   Posted By: MJB Melbourne

4. I know who I'd rather rely on for good advice on these subjects, and it ain't Bob Brown! I would like to gently point out to Browny that the mere existence of 'mainstream thinking' cannot necessarily make something right. In quite a lot of what I see attributed to him, there's always something askew. In this instance, it's pretty obviously his whole outlook on life and an inability to look past his, and others', carnal and anti Catholic ideals and desires. Abortion foolwed by same sex adoption (work that out!), same sex 'marriage' for Heaven's sake. Good God, what will they come up with next.
   I shall ignore them in this election and any others.
   

   Posted By: Jeremy Wilson, Wodonga 3690

5. I would beg to differ, Mr. Brown. I would be safe in saying the majority of Catholics would not agree with you and I would stay with the Cardinal on this issue.

   Posted By: ron hodges Port Macquarie

6. If the majority of Catholics support the things Bob Brown says they do, the majority of Catholics (which includes some bishops and priests) are no longer in union with the teaching of the Church. So are they Catholics in anything but name?

   Posted By: Ruadhri, Geelong

7. Well said, Cardinal Pell. One could hardly find a more pagan outlook than among the Greens, a philosophy more anti-family and hostile to Christian principes than that espoused by the hypocritical Greens. The thought of the Greens controlling the Senate is horrifying - it would be like a curse on our nation.

   Posted By: Elston Gunn, Canberra

8. The Popes teaach us that the environment can only fully protected if we regard human life as sacred from conception to natural death. I don't think the Greens are committed to this very Catholic tradition.

   Posted By: Patrick Austin. Balranald. NSW

9. Senator Bob Brown is correct, in saying that Cardinal George Pell's views on same sex marriage are 'discriminatory and biased.'
   They have to be, if the traditional concept of Marriage is to be upheld. He, along with Archbishop Jensen and the Australian Christian Lobby, are to be congratulated for their timely stance.
   The Senator has done good work in alerting Australians of all persuasions to the importance of the environment, but he ought to refrain from attempting to undermine one of the fundamental pillars of civilization.
   Bob could also also be referenced to the 2nd Commandment: 'Do not have strange Gods before Me' and desist from turning the 'Environment' into a new religion.
   As to Bob's compassion for refugees, the 'test for asylum' as outlined recently in The Australian newspaper by the Somali-born Muslim writer/activist, Ayaan Hirsi Ali should be read and understood and adopted before its too late.

   Posted By: Peter C Donnelly. Hobart)

10. Rather than jumping over Bob Brown for his sweeping statements about a Catholic leader, it’d be salutary to reflect on why Cardinal Pell might have criticised the Greens and why the Greens have the policies they do.
    Cardinal Pell’s own terms 'pagan' and 'anti-family' are code-words with emotive value.
    Greens' supporters aren’t different 'types of people', they have ethics and families too.
    A broad cross-section of them may think the way we regard both should be based on other philosophical or social criteria than claims of revelation/authority.
    One sore point underscoring conservative religious opposition to the Greens is their different take on sex discrimination questions and the moral status of abortion.
    But supporters of the major parties also have diverse takes on such issues. It’s as much a slur to call Greens voters “anti-family” pagans as to call Cardinal Pell and conservative religious 'un-Christian'.
    The Greens' policies don’t threaten social order but the privileged status of religious elements in society on various issues - which those elements wish to protect. There’s nothing hypocritical about the Greens' political stance. If one is fair, they’re as unable to satisfy every moral constituency as any of the others, and it comes down to the citizen's individual election prioritising. No party will support any form of theocracy so the Greens shouldn’t be demonised for that. Their control of the Senate cannot be any more nightmarish than the major parties' and the record shows they’ve frequently ameliorated the harsher pragmatisms of the major parties.
    I don't think responsible franchise is best served by instinctive tribalism, however spiritually motivated.

    Posted By: smk, Bundarra

11. 'The greatest moral challenge of our age'
    Enjoying a pleasant time at The Rocks the evening of the recent NSW State by election in Sydney's west, I had the opportunity of speaking with a Green Party organiser happy to see the Greens at 12.5%.
    I confessed I was a Climate Change sceptic; as a scientist I preferred evidence to everything else. He agreed with me. He was happy to accept that there has been some warming of the earth but not a lot, and we agreed that it is possible in any age for climate to change.
    When I pointed out that an Australian professor of geology had found that atmospheric CO2 levels were historically independent of global warming he accepted that I could hold that view.
    His view was that if we add something to the atmosphere we are polluting it so we must take it out.From his point of view no one but the Greens will do this.
    Not many vote for the Greens because they want to muzzle the independent school systems or introduce euthanasia by consent.The green vote is a protest vote, the hope of those that believe that changing the environment will save us.
    It is a new faith-based party of the young. It has to be debated with in the market square or the pubs.

    Posted By: Lewis P Buckingham Kellyville NSW

12. I beg to differ, Peter S. Most of the services offered under the catholic umbrella are the reponsibility of religious orders and not Cardinal Pell.
    Justice, compassion, and hospitality for the poor and vulnerable including those with views different to our own are essential practice for Christians. Jesus preached inclusion.

    Posted By: cmw brisbane

13. cms: I don't think Jesus said anything about inclusion, which, in its social sense, is a very slippery late 20th century concept.

    Posted By: Lance Eccles, Goulburn NSW

14. Cardinal George Pell has been outspoken on many of the issues that the Greens stand for especially climate change. Senator Brown is merely responding.
    Catholics who choose to vote Green are doing so because they believe that climate change and a fair society are important.
    The Cardinal has another agenda that is church governance. I strongly believe that the hierachy and its discrimination against homosexual people is out of step with the views of the faithful.

    Posted By: Anne, Melbourne

15. Cardinal Pell does not represent mainstream Catholic thinking on so many things but in particular on climate change.
    In 2007, he stated that “global warming should be taken with a grain of salt.”
    These sentiments were in direct opposition to the 2005 position paper by the Australian Bishops which stated “given the gravity of the existence of climate change, detailed and resolute responses need to be both swift and radical.”
    Also in contrast to Cardinal Pell, Pope Benedict has frequently addressed climate change and care for the environment as profound moral issues. Senator Brown is correct when he states that Cardinal Pell does not represent mainstream Christian thinking.
    

    Posted By: terry fitz south brisbane

16. 'That's why he's not standing for election and I am.'
    Or perhaps Cardinal Pell, as a spiritual leader who is forbidden by canon law to hold political office, does not believe that politics is the be-all-and-end-all of everything.

    Posted By: Kyle

17. The Cardinal Archbishop never ceases to amaze and disappoint; there are so many other critically important issues that should be given his undivided attention if the Church is to restore its integrity

    Posted By: Pearson Ballarat

18. I'm a card-carrying member of the Greens and will be voting Green.
    I've got a sneaking feeling St Francis of Assissi would vote Green!
    While Cardinal Pell is hunting out anti-Christian elements in the political line-up, why isn't he mentioning the barbaric intention of the Liberals to tow boats full of refugees back out into international waters?
    Even though there's nothing illegal about handing oneself over to the authorities and requesting refugee status.
    And to move to the Labor Government. What aspects of that fit the Cardinal's criteria for being Christian?

    Posted By: Marie H, Brisbane Qld

19. Why did the Greens refuse to answer 18 of the 24 questions asked of the political parties by the Australian Christian Lobby?
    Even the Sex party had a better response even though their policies are about as far removed from Christian values as you can get.
    The answer is simply the Greens do not consider Christian values in their policies, especially regarding abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia, manufacturing and industry, farming, water management, religous autonomy, sanctity of life etc etc etc.
    As someone has said, they get the protest vote so some people can feel good about contributing towards saving the planet.
    In reality, even their climate policies will ruin this country as they close down industry and force more manufacturing offshore.
    Cardinal Pell is absolutely right. I've just voted early and placed the Greens last, and hope all other Catholics do likewise.
    God help us if they control the balance of power in the senate.

    Posted By: Noel, Gippsland Vic

20. The Greens are right to be passionate about the health of the environment. However, they put it above the welfare of human beings, not, as Christians do, essentially linked to it.
    Isn't Peter Singer one of the sources of their intellectual vision? Christian belief in the Incarnation demands a respect for human life from conception to death - do the Greens support this?
    All that being said, Cardinal Pell is wrong in thinking that all Christians hold the same values - perhaps they should, but they don't.
    The Church should be doing more to convert the hearts and minds of people, rather than dictating rules of behaviour and practice.
    Stop trying to convert Christian behaviour via politics and the law of the land, and speak directly to individual hearts. Unless that's too hard, of course.

    Posted By: Joan Seymour Albion, Vic.

21. I think we have to be careful how we frame our ideas: to say Incarnational faith demands respect for human life from conception to death would mean for some that no abortions are ever permissible and no one in terminal agony or permanent vegetative incapacity should ever be given a death-inducing tranquiliser or have their hydration and nourishment stopped.
    But for others respect for human life might mean such things for compassionate reasons.
    I won't enter into a debate on the strength of both positions here: my point is simply that the words 'respect for human life' have to be unpacked since they can so easily be wielded as a sweeping slogan.
    Besides, many people might contest such an assertion: the nexus between some of the people who believe in the Incarnation (or their own version of God) and their causing harm and death to other humans is historically obvious.
    Perhaps what is meant is that a particular attitude or understanding of the meaning of the Incarnation would lead to a commitment not to want to ever cause additional suffering or death to any other human. But responsible ethicists would surely say that some circumstances might demand otherwise.
    In which case the disagreement moves on to what circumstances these might be.
    People might differ from some of the conclusions Peter Singer reaches on how we ought to treat life in all its forms, but he unpacks and argues the issues coherently and so he remains, like any significant contemporary (or historical) philosopher, worth reading and reflecting upon.

    Posted By: smk, Bundarra

22. Bob Brown is engaging in a tactic that is fairly well described in the SMH last Saturday http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/democracy-weakened-by-charade-20100806-11oe7.html
    Simply put you take outlandishly progressive views and claim the middle ground or even the high moral ground. Anybody sucked in by this is a fool.

    Posted By: Michael at Cranebrook

23. The Church has a long tradition (albeit with some notable, courageous exceptions such as Archbishop romero) of siding with right wing (and sometimes fascist) ideology. I am, therefore, not surprised at Cardinal Pell's comments.

    Posted By: andrew nixon. Melbourne

24. Jesus might not have said anything about inclusion but his actions certainly proclaimed it loud and clear. If you do not have inclusion then, surely, you have exclusion.

    Posted By: SCB - Brisbane

25. Bob Brown telling Cardinal Pell what Catholics think?
    I find this a joke or insulting, maybe both.
    I object to anyone speaking for me. As a Catholic woman, I am able to think for myself! - Sydney, NSW

    Posted By: Kate

26. I agree with all you say, smk.
    My use of the word 'respect' didn't imply - or rather, I didn't intend it to imply - any dogmatic response to issues such as abortion. I too respect Peter Singer and his honest and skilful work.
    I think belief in the Incarnation - God at work in human flesh - dignifies humanity above the rest of Creation, or gives it a particular role among the rest of Creation. I'm not sure Peter Singer or the Greens think this. I intend to vote for the Greens, however - at least they have a consistent philosophy, which no other party seems to have.

    Posted By: Joan Seymour Albion, Vic.

27. Perfectly understood, Joan. Thanks for your reply. I see what you are saying, and the way you put it makes sense. Sincere regards.

    Posted By: smk, Bundarra

28. Regardless of anything else, this article alone should be enough to convince any Christian to put the Greens last for their leader’s breathtaking hypocrisy and misrepresentation of Cardinal Pell and of Christians in general.
    Brown claims: 'The good archbishop has forgotten the ninth commandment', [the eighth actually but how would he be expected to know] “which is `thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbour'," and in the same breath says incorrectly that “Cardinall Pell opposes compassion to asylum seekers and the BER (Building the Education Revolution) scheme”.
    Christians support the Golden Rule: We wouldn’t like to be murdered when very young and totally innocent, so we know it’s wrong to murder young innocent people. The Greens policy states that murdering them is a “right” which they want to extend.
    

    Posted By: Peter G Thornleigh

29. cmw, Brisbane: The Gospel is 'Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near'. Jesus took up this preaching from John the Baptist.
    Jesus included whom? Repentent sinners. And He rejected whom? Those who did not repent and did not love God.
    Jesus was not a relativist - He was a realist. He desired all souls to go to Heaven. In doing so, He said many uncomfortable and challenging words and, also some dramatic actions.
    The Church's highest calling is to preach the Gospel as Jesus did - Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is nigh! All that is done such as hospitals, charities ect flows from the Preached Gospel and love of God. Without that - we would social workers.
    Bob Brown desires to change our work ethic, social morals, and spiritual life - by telling us we cannot have hospitals that are unwilling to kill unborn children; can't have schools that teach our faith; and finally take a religious ceremony and make it sacrilegious by including same sex couples.
    Joan, they do have a consistant philosophy, unfortunately it is a very challenging one for those who desire freedom of religion.
    Well done for Cardinal Pell for displaying much needed leadership within the Catholic Church against opposition. Also, for highlighting areas of policy concern within our political parties.

    Posted By: Fran, Brisbane

30. Cardinal Pell's comments show how out of touch he is with the views of Australians of all religion. Rather than discredit the green environmental movement, his comments will only drive young people away from the catholic church

    Posted By: Rich Perth

31. Rich: The Cardinal didn't criticise 'the green environmental movement'; in fact, he said he was proud to be a part of the movement, which after all owes its origin to the Catholic Church.
    He criticised the anti-Christian, anti-human and anti-family policies of The Australian Greens political party. It is very dangerous to confuse the two. Don't be hoodwinked by The Greens' claims that everyone who cares for the natural environment votes for their party.

    Posted By: Peter G Thornleigh

32. Bravo, Cardinal Pell!

    Posted By: peter, Canberra

33. I am left wondering where the evidence is which states the a majority of Christians would support same sex marriages, as Senator Bob Brown suggests. This is certainly not what I hear. Radical statements like these need to be prepared to show their evedence base. What does 'the majority of Christians' constitute for Senator Brown?

    Posted By: Rev Tony Blake. NSW

34. I think Mr Brown needs to be careful when speaking on behalf of the Christian Church as a whole. He is not a part of the Church, so should not speak on our behalf. Yes, the Greens are similar to the Mainstream Church in their search for justice, mercy and compassion, but it ends there. They in fact apose many of the mainstream Churches values and theology. It is ridiculous to even suggest the Greens are similar to mainstream churches. Many of the Greens policies would deny my Christian values and ministry, ironically making it a non Freedom of Speach society which they stand for.
    Please Mr Brown, don't quote the Bible, because you are tredding ground which you will surely sink in.

    Posted By: LK Wagga Wagga

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