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Recent Comments

1. There are people who do not understand plain English, never mind 'ye olde worlde English', so I feel this is a backward step.
   The hierarchy seem to not listen to us the people of God. How on earth are people who have english as a second language expected to understand. caboolture

   Posted By: irena mangone caboolture

2. It's a bit hard to get excited about what appears to be a self-limiting confection of affectations, not likely to have much appeal to Anglicans or Roman-rite Catholics.
   I imagine they're trying to reinvent the rite of Sarum, which Trent went to some lengths to rule out. It raises the question of the reinvigoration of more authentic rites like the Dominican, suppressed after Vatican II.
   I've never grasped why God is more pleased by a mass with the celebrant mooning the congregation.

   Posted By: RobJ Adelaide

3. Dear old Heppy. Why didn't he stay a Catholic Priest instead of swapping sides?

   Posted By: John of Renmark SA

4. Is this the thin end of the wedge for more 'Back to the Past'. Will Latin classes be compulsory for the new
   entrants?

   Posted By: George, Melbourne

5. Some are short-sighted - this history in the making and, if I may dare, an action of the Holy Spirit.
   The mass is more than bread and wine, priest and congregation.
   Each mass is a miracle; each mass is fully attended by the hosts of heaven and via the communion of saints by all believers: the quick and the dead.
   It is not so much that G-D cares about details but whether we know what's going on or do we just dress up?
   Welcome dear people, welcome back.
   The door remains open for all...

   Posted By: Hermann Kepfer, Los Angeles, CA

6. Thank Heavens! The possibility of attending Mass, receiving valid Holy Communion and worshiping with the assistance of intelligent and tasteful priests without the banal interference of music that belongs more to the American 1920's revivalist Protestant church than to our own tradition is a very important part of my spirituality, however insignificant this may be for others.
   Hopefully whatever church chosen in Sydney won't be a dark hole where parishioners are encouraged to look glum, feel guilty, and only sing Gregorian chant propers.
   A win/win situation for Catholics, I say!

   Posted By: Brent Egan Stanmore NSW

7. The priest and congregation are both directing their attention to God, facing the same direction. He is not talking to the people but to God. It's not a case of the priest having his back to the people.
   

   Posted By: Anglesey Glengowrie SA

8. Some correspondents appear to think that the Holy Spirit has been on strike for the past fifty years and that everything that has happened in the Church in that time has been an aberation.
   As a child of the fifties brought up on the latin Mass, I have no yearning to be returned to the status of a spectator.
   I much prefer active participation in my own language with idioms I can understand. As a child who learnt latin at school, I spent most of my time at Mass trying to translate the latin and arrive at the same place as the priest at the same time - not a very prayerful experience! Familiar English allows me to concentrate on what is important - the act of thanksgiving that is the Eucharist.

   Posted By: Vicki Ward, Brisbane

9. When referring to plain English, would someone please tell those in authority that most of us do not know (or care very much) what terms such as 'Ordinariate' etc mean? We are more concerned with good liturgy than terms, and, as do many others, we deplore the music being used today. I find that too many modern hymns use more 'Is' than Jesus and I really do not like Hillsong stuff, nor any electronic music during Mass. It is spiritually disorienting.

   Posted By: jah walloon qld

10. Welcome to our Anglican brothers and sisters. I believe many Catholics are hungering for a Mass that is truly a 'sursum corda' - a lifting up of their hearts to the Lamb - knowing that all in the heavenly liturgy are chanting: Holy is the Lamb. I look forward to such a Liturgy.

    Posted By: Patrick Austin. Balranald.

11. Oh dear... just when I thought we were moving forward with Vatican ll we are blasted back to the past.
    The Church is about the people, community and I enjoy Mass today because of the inclusiveness. After this, what next?

    Posted By: Cynthia Sears - Western Australia

12. At last we are regaining our past, it would be wonderful to re-acquaint ourselves with the ancient traditions of the Catholic Church.

    Posted By: Noel T. Newcastle

13. I guess the historical recreation groups were getting tired of always being outdoors. A bit intrusive though, using church property.

    Posted By: Mark J, Blue Mountains. NSW.

14. I guess the historical recreation groups were getting tired of always being outdoors. A bit intrusive,though, using church property.

    Posted By: Mark J, Blue Mountains. NSW.

15. Hermann and Brent: What was a simple teaching meal of a Jewish Rabbi with his disciples has become a grand latinized opera with its own artificial language, much dressing up.
    Brent: please define a valid Holy Communion.
    What is 'an intelligent and tasteful priest'? Please explain.
    Several years ago a Catholic bishop told me, when I raised the possibility of Anglican clergy coming over - 'We've got enough problems; we don't want to import any more. I've seen them come and go'.

    Posted By: Charles (Brisbane)

16. RobJ Adelaide: When the priest and people face 'ad oriente' to celebrate the Mass, the priest is far from 'mooning' the congregation, but rather leading the people of God towards the crucified and risen Christ who comes to meet them from the East. (If the Pope's words carry any weight in this matter.)
    I am tragically saddened at how shallow is the practice and understanding of so many Catholics concerning the liturgy today.
    My heart finally cracked when I stood outside my last Australian parish church after a woman had fled in tears because of the liturgical abuses forced on her and us by a visiting priest - to hear a group of her sister parishioners say, 'Well, he didn't go far enough. The next thing we have to do is get those priests out of the sanctuary.'
    The results of 30 years of misinterpretation of the meaning of the term - 'the full particiaption of the faithful'. The liturgy has become a misinterpreted 'power struggle for 'jobs' - in many parishes - because it has focused on 'us' at the expense of worshipping God, and some people think they can simply do what they like and make it up as they go along. That's why you have empty churches and a feminised, as opposed to Marian, church.

    Posted By: Phillip Turnbull Jakarta

17. Now it's official: the Rites of Mithras live and are coming to a hot bed of Temple worship near you.
    

    Posted By: David Timbs Albion. Vic.

18. This article and some of the comments made so far point to the lack of understanding surrounding 'ad orientem' worship. Rather than 'returning to the past', 'mooning the congregation' or turning 'away from the congregation' this ancient practice unites priest with people in worship of God who is not only in their midst but who is also yet to return.
    Since the changes of Vatican II the priest has become a type of 'rock star' figure to whom it is too easy to focus the attention of worship upon. Turning to face the cosmic symbolism of the rising sun to the east as the Son who is to return brings people together with priest in looking and moving forward toward our one true God whose return we are awaiting. Together we offer the one sacrifice united as one body not as priest performing for us. I find it very sad that there is such misunderstanding and hostility amoung Catholics who should know better.

    Posted By: Luke Reid, Katoomba

19. It is, of course, a retrograde step, embarrassingly infantile and certainly reactionary.
    A church cannot survive in defiance of society. It should and must respond to its people. Clearly that's not what is happening with [this lot of] neo-conservative Christians. It is back to the past as well as back to the people!

    Posted By: Jeff KETTERING TAS 7155

20. I'm not sure why people are complaining. Surely a Church of a billion people is big enough to have a diverse form of liturgies, and no-one is being forced to attend these 'Anglican' liturgies.
    Personally I'm not that interested in listening to a Mass spoken in Shakepearean English, although having the Priest face 'East' seems more appropriate than the usual orientation used with the Novus Ordo Mass.

    Posted By: Kevin. Brisbane.

21. A salutary reminder to all the the Ordinariate congregations will be just another fringe group who certainly won't be welcoming of any of the rest of us bogtrotters.
    They have as much interest in being at one with the Roman wing of the Church Catholick and Apostolick as the Wee Frees. It's all abut flouting the authority of Canterbury rather than accepting that of the Holy Father.
    As for 'intelligent and tasteful' priests -stop having yourself on.

    Posted By: JR,Sydney

22. Luke Reid: You have wonderfully conveyed the Mithraic worship ritual. Please do some research to see how similar it is to what you have written in your post.
    Then you might realise the legitimate concern of so many about this form of worship.
    
    

    Posted By: MarkJ, Blue Mountains. NSW.

23. Mark J: I am aware of your argument. Would you also like to abolish Christmas? It is deeply connected with sun worship (if we take your position).
    Christianity has alway incorporated elements from other faith traditions and given them a Christian meaning. Perhaps you need to do a bit of research?

    Posted By: Luke Reid, Katoomba

24. The hostility expressed towards the converts in the comments is amazing. It amounts to 'Get out of our church and go back to your own.'
    It's as though personal comfort takes precedence over the salvation of souls.
    Nobody will be forced to attend Mass in the Anglican rite, not even the converts themselves.

    Posted By: Lance Eccles, Goulburn NSW

25. Personally, I'd much rather go back 2,000 years for an authentic celebration of Eucharist.

    Posted By: Marie, Adelaide

26. This discussion is notable for the bitterness and intolerance of the self-styled inclusivistas.
    The real challenge will be the flood of cradle Catholics looking to the Ordinariate for some relief from the banality, dumbing-down and ideology from the age of Mao and Pol Pot that too often disfigure their liturgy.

    Posted By: PM

27. No, Jeff, the Church is the result of the people responding to God. Otherwise, what's the point? And don't worry too much.
    Throughout the centuries the Church has survived and even thrived despite persecution from society.
    Phillip Turnbull put it well, I think.

    Posted By: pei Wide Bay

28. I loved Latin at school and could fully answer the Mass in Latin; in fact I did so frequently at weekday masses if the altar boy didn't turn up.
    However, I don't understand why the format of the Mass needs to be changed just because we now have the Anglican Ordinariate.
    If they are going to join the Catholic Church, shouldn't they be following our liturgies? There have been so many changes in the Catholic Church in recent times that it seems as though they are making up the rules as they go along.
    I find it all very confusing and I find that Pope Benedict is a very hard Pope to follow, especially with his attitude to women.
    I know I'm just a very ordinary lay person and I must accept all these changes without question. However, I find now that I'm just believing and praying to God in my heart, because I can't cope with the rest of it. I'm going to 'cut out the middle man' altogether and deal directly and personally with God in my own way. I just hope that He will forgive me and ultimately save me.

    Posted By: Annie Shepparton

29. My Goodness, so many people getting so cross and even hostile about the Ordinariate and its implications to Catholics. (Bishop Peter Elliott commented on the spirit of good will and co-operation at the meeting.)
    How are we going to cope when the new translation of the liturgy is introduced to parishes some time next year?

    Posted By: Mary Maraz. Coogee.NSW.

30. Phillip Turnbull: So, the risen Christ comes to meet us from the East... Where did you get that piece of information from? What about those church buildings not built facing east?
    Like you, I too am tragically saddened at how shallow is the practice and understanding of so many Catholics concerning the liturgy today.
    It concerns me that there are still some who seem to think that ornate, fastidious, east-facing medieval liturgies are what pleases Jesus.
    My heart cracked when attending Eucharist at an oversaes parish where I, like every other non-clergy present, was denied the cup.....a real and inexcusable abuse.
    Next time I'll go to an Anglican Eucharist.

    Posted By: Charles (Brisbane)

31. Luke Reid: The difference being that at Christmas we do not worship via a pagan format. The liturgy you endorse is directly pagan.I see that you have not done the research I asked you to do.
    But more importantly, Luke and others, is that this alternative worship format erases what is fundamental to the actual liturgy: the table of the Lord and the invitation to all.
    Ripping 'sacrifice' from its true location within the meal and isolating it the way now endorsed exposes this as mere elititist and pagan ritual.
    Christian sacrifice is far more than the exclusive all male worship of a hero warrior deity, despite lace and buskins.

    Posted By: MarkJ, Blue Mountains.NSW.

32. Charles to answer your questions. 'Valid; Holy Communion is the bread and wine transformed in Christ's Body and Blood by a validly ordained Catholic priest. I+T priests? (which my present PP is one fortunately).
    Priests who focus their attention and are attentive to detail about preaching the Gospel effectively, and how best they can make this relevant to ordinary people like myself. Good liturgy is 75% of their 'battle' won, in my opinion, particularly in regards to your question of definition of taste. Attention to beauty in any form, musically, and artistically is an indicator.
    Priests who pander to the lowest common denominator by trying to be popular by either their perceived power(long since gone) or by acquiesing to every banal whim of a lay liturgical zealot; those priests who drone on in homilies for more than 7 minutes (without preparation); presume their congregations are there to talk about football etc. don't fit this bill however arrogant I may sound. Charles, I don't want 'opera' in church, just good hymns will do for the moment. Interesting you are from Brisbane.
    The Anglican Church gets better the further north in AU one goes. Sadly, that can't be said for us 'bogtrotters' as JR describes us.

    Posted By: Brent Egan Stanmore NSW

33. Charles - I 'got that one' from Pope Benedict. 'The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is closed in on itself. The common turning toward the east was not a "celebration toward the wall' it did not mean that the priest 'had his back to the people': the priest himself was not regarded as so important.
    For just as the congregation in the synagogue looked together toward Jerusalem, so in the Christian liturgy the congregation looked together 'toward the Lord'.
    They did not close themselves into a circle; they did not gaze at one another; but as the pilgrim People of God they set off for the Oriens, for the Christ who comes to meet us.... [A]common turning to the east during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of something accidental, but of what is essential. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. -- The Spirit of the Liturgy, pp. 80-81.
    Thank you for your question.
    
    

    Posted By: Phillip Turnbull Jakarta

34. Phillip Turnbull: One man's personal liturgical aesthetic and extreme generalisations do not necessarily express accuracy.
    Let's not think that such an elevated position necessarily translates taste into liturgical norm.
    The pope is not the church.

    Posted By: mark j,Blue Mountains.NSW.

35. Brent and Phillip...
    Brent: Considering our Rabbi, Jesus, never mentioned bishops and priests and never ordained any and considering that there were no priests mentioned in the New Testament Church therefor no one back then received a valid Holy Communion. Are you limiting Christ to what he may and may not do.
    Are non-Catholics denied saving grace because they might not have 'a valid priest'.
    Are they denied Holy Communion by the risen Christ?
    Phillip: Did Jesus face east when he gave us the Last Supper or was he part of a 'self-enclosed circle'?
    If Benedict believes that Jesus comes from the east, that doesn't mean we need to. What does it mean anyway?
    The author of the book the Spirit of the Liturgy might think it 'essential' that we face east.
    I bet the Holy Spirit doesn't and we are called to worship the Father 'in spirit and in truth'.
    This does not depend on what direction your nose points.
    You did not answer my question: what about those church buildings not facing east? To celebrate facing east presumes the building is aligned east-west. I could be wrong but someone commented that not even Peter's Basilica in Rome faces east. To get our church building to face east means we'd have to literally turn it in that direction.
    The sun might rise in the east but we do not worship the sun. The risen Christ is with his people no matter what direction they are facing.
    Enough of this superstition.
    

    Posted By: Charles (Brisbane)

36. Phillip: Also, you are being disingenuous with your use of Pope Benedict's quote in that you seem to be deliberatly bluring the line between the quality of authority given to the comment.
    Obviously Benedict was writing as a theologian, or more specifically as an aesthete, giving personal aesthetic reflection, with veneer of theological consideration.
    There is no onus upon anybody to accept Benedict's aesthetic considerations over and above what they are.

    Posted By: Mark J. Blue Mountains. NSW.

37. I think we need a red alert - I'm fearing we might be facing weapons of Mass destruction!

    Posted By: Marie, Adelaide

38. What a lot of red herrings are deliberately being laid across the trail!
    Nobody will be forced to attend the ordinariate liturgy. It will not be introduced into existing roman catholic parishes.
    Those of us who grew up loving the pre-vatican II liturgy and have been denied it ever since will be only too happy to leave you to your rock masses, guitars and bongo drums and 'cuddle me Jesus' hymns for the ordinariate liturgy in the separate parishes of the ordinariate.

    Posted By: Hugo Sydney

39. Sorry to come in late. In relation to east/ad orientum liturgy - it dates back to the early Church and was the universal practice east and west until 1970ish.
    A priest may (as an option) say Mass facing the people, but the Rubrics to the Roman Missal of Pope Paul VI have the Priest celebrating ad orientum. In Churches not built on an east west axis the tabernacle and crucifix act as a liturgical east.
    St John Damascene said: At His ascent into Heaven He went to the East, and so do the Apostles pray to Him; He will come again as the Apostles saw Him going, and so the Lord Himself says: 'As the lightning comes forth from the East and shines even to the West, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.'
    There are many diverse liturgies east and west in the Catholic Church and the ordinate will allow, for the time being, Anglicans to continue their liturgical traditions - in accord with Catholic Doctrine.
    The Second Vatican council said steps should be taken so that the people can say/sing Mass in Latin, that Gregorian Chant be given first place at Mass. It did not call for facing the people, removed alters, crucifixes, tabernacles etc, communion standing etc.
    So, with respect, those who say Latin, Chant etc is going backwards, well yes, back to 1963 and what Vat II really said about the liturgy.

    Posted By: Matthew Sydney

40. Matthew: When you say the eastward position dates back to the early church - how early?
    According to Acts 2:46, the Eucharist was celebrated in homes and as Fr Alexander Schmemann states, re the first couple of centuries: 'the bishop, surrounded by presbyters (elders) facing the assembly, the Supper Table, on which the deacons placed the gifts (bread and wine).....' (Introduction to Liturgical Theology, 1986, p154).
    I believe the great Liturgical Scholar, Dom Gregory Dix, wrote similarly.
    As Fr Frank O'Dea SSS has written: Each community would have developed its own way of celebrating Eucharist.....eg at Corinth they celebrated together with a community meal eg 1 Corinthians 11:20-21.
    The importance of facing one another is twofold, as the Magisterium teaches, (1) the priest recognises Christ in his sisters and brothers gathered with him (after all, are we all the Body of Christ?) and (2) the community faces Christ in the presider. We worship the risen Christ present in each other, in the Word, in the Sacrament etc surely ......we do not worship the sun.
    You write: In Churches not built on an east west axis the tabernacle and crucifix act as a liturgical east....
    That is impossible in our church building. Are you saying 'we then pretend that we are facing east'? Pretend? Where is truth in pretending? for we are called to worship in spirit and truth.
    St John Damascene is wrong. What does he mean anyway?I am not aware that we must take everything that so-called saints say and write as being literally true.
    Crucifixes and tabernacles....when did they appear anyway? Much later, I presume.
    Latin, lace, etc etc..... I doubt if Jesus would recognise the simple meal he gave us. I doubt if he would be impressed. After all, these are mere human traditions that evolved over centuries.
    In the final analysis, I'm not particularly interested in what any Church council says; it is what the Holy Spirit is saying that is more important.

    Posted By: Charles (Brisbane)

41. Charles: Who decides what the Holy Spirit is saying? A council?
    Jesus didn't just give us a simple meal? 'Which will be given up for you (on Calvary).'
    Above all else Mass is his sacrifice represented unbloodily for God's adoration and our sanctification. We are at the Cross with Mary and angels/saints watch over.
    St John means that the apostles pray Mass facing the east and that Christ will come again from the east. Great eschatological significance.
    The Crucifix on or right near the altar (as per the Roman Missal), and the tabernacle (in the centre according to an apostolic exhortation by Pope Benedict, unless special chapel) symbolises the east, when the Priest can't literally face east. Signs and symbols are important in liturgy, are they not?
    Who said anything about worshiping the sun? But with ad orientum we face the Son in prayer, together as one Church in unity.
    Pope Benedict in Spirit of the Liturgy stated 'one thing has remained clear for the whole of Christendom: praying toward the east is a tradition
    that goes back to the beginning. Moreover, it is a fundamental expression of the Christian synthesis of cosmos and history...'
    Mass goes beyond our little parish community.
    Monsignor Klaus Gamber noted the ancient practice of ad orientum, even showing that in Roman basilicas where the priest faced the people to face east, he would say 'turn to the Lord' and they would then turn and be facing the east (their 'backs' to the Priest).

    Posted By: Matthew Sydney

42. In response to this very problem of the 'communal meal' objection to ad orientam, the Holy Father quotes Louis Bouyer in The Spirit of the Liturgy:
    The idea that a celebration facing the people must have been the primitive one, and that especially of the last supper, has no other foundation than a mistaken view of what a meal could be in antiquity, Christian or not. In no meal of the early Christian era, did the president of the banqueting assembly ever face the other participants. They were all sitting, or reclining, on the convex side of a C-shaped table, or of a table having approximately the shape of a horse shoe. The other side was always left empty for the service. Nowhere in Christian antiquity, could have arisen the idea of having to 'face the people' to preside at a meal. The communal character of a meal was emphasized just by the opposite disposition: the fact that all the participants were on the same side of the table. ([Architecture et liturgie,] pp. 53-54) (p. 78).
    

    Posted By: Matthew Sydney

43. Matthew: Surely, the People of God discern what the Holy Spirit is saying. After all, are we (the baptised) the Body of Christ or not?
    The Eucharist does come from a simple Jewish meal held in a home. Jesus certainly did not intend the ornateness etc of later developments. The early Christians celebrated in houses often with an agape meal attached (Paul).
    The Jewish people held different sacrifices, not all involving blood.
    Who says Christ will literally come from the east? No eschatological significance at all if it's based on a myth. John is wrong.
    So the crucifix and the tabernacle merely symbolise the east? Once again, myth and fantasy stuff. What happened before the church had crucifixes and tabernacles. These were later developments and, therefore, hardly essential.
    Signs and symbols are important only if they have authentic meaning. Kissing the pope's foot, at one time, might have had a meaning (as unChristlike and dangerous as it was) but it hardly does today.
    By facing one another we face Christ in one another, a far more important reality. After all, we are the Body of Christ. Does the RC Church not believe this?
    Praying facing the east does not go back to the beginning. Where is it mentioned in Scripture? Where does Paul say that we must celebrate the Lord's Supper facing the east?
    Klaus Gambier seems to be suggesting that the people do not face the east for the entire liturgy.
    The description in John 13:23,25;21:20 of the Beloved Disciple as reclining against Jesus' chest confirms a triclinium-type arrangement
    Tricline is a Roman, squarish U-shaped divan or sofa. On the exterior of all three sides (hence tri) dining guests recline (hence cline). The open area is for servants to serve food. Archaeological digs at Sephoris (just down the road from Nazareth) reveal art showing such. However, in the triclinium mode those on the wings of the U face one another. The particpiants are reclining (not to the east); at least, some are facing one another.
    Where did Jesus sit? If he were sitting on one of the arms of the U, then he was facing the rest. The art at Sephoris shows the food was served from the space between the arms or from the end of the arms and not, as Bouyer asserts, from the other side - which does not make sense.

    Posted By: Charles (Brisbane)

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