Have Your Say 

Recent Comments

1. If only the Vatican were as friendly towards those who support Vatican II as to those who hate it.

   Posted By: RobJ

2. The Vatican is supportive of the documents from the Second Vatican Council, as well as being 'friendly' to those who are actively implementing the actual reforms of the Council.

   Posted By: Chris

3. RobJ: The SSPX is not alone in asking what Vatican II means, especially how it sits beside all the other ecumenical councils and what they definitively taught.

   Posted By: Peter in Canberra

4. Peter in Canberra: Just because 'the SSPX is not alone in asking what Vatican 2 means' doesn't validate the Society's stance.
   The SSPX is obsessed with the Tridentine liturgy to exclusion of everything else. Unfortunately this obsession seems to have spread among the 'smaller, purer Church' revisionists.
   There are none so deaf as those who refuse to listen or so blind as those who refuse to see.
   Enough to make the baby Jesus cry...

   Posted By: JR,Sydney

5. A couple of points in response, JR. In his Bull “Quo Primum,” Pope St. Pius V prescribed that the Tridentine Missal was to be followed in perpetuity, and that it could not be revoked. This would appear to be at odds with the introduction of the Novus Ordo Missae, and the SSPX is correct to ask the question. Other Missals (e.g. such as the Chaldean or Sarum rites) could be retained providing they could show more than 200 years of use. Quo Primum also gives all Catholics the right to the Tridentine Mass “ …without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgement or censure…” This right was denied to us for years, and we were falsely told by Vatican II aficionados that its use had been banned. Quo Primum has never been abrogated. Bearing in mind the frivolous and sacrilegious novelties that appeared in the years following the council in its name (think clown and rock masses, amongst others), can the SSPX be blamed for clinging to the Traditional Liturgy? Indeed, the Baby Jesus would be crying at the many abuses. But for the courageous stand made by Archbishop Lefebvre, this treasure of the Church may well have disappeared entirely. For anybody trying to understand the SSPX’s position, Quo Primum and the critique of the Novus Ordo Missae made by Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci in 1969 are must reads.

   Posted By: Adam Armstrong

6. JR, it seems almost as if you don't want people to rejoin the Church.

   Posted By: Peter G

7. If only we were all listened to with the same care and respect as these dissenters, they have caused great division and strife in the church. Those of us who have struggled to live Vatican II and "hang on" despite the revisionists are barely listened to, especially us women. I do hope that the SSPX Bishop who is the Holocaust denier is never allowed back into our church unless he makes a public recant of his horrendous and disrespectful statement offending yet again our Jewish brothers and sisters, and the many other people whose lives were snuffed out by the Nazi regime. Margaret M.Coffey

   Posted By: Margaret M.Coffey

8. The currently tense and focussed discussions involving the Vatican and representatives of the SPXX are indicative that the present pope is someone who will not betray the key guidelines and teachings of Vatican II. He quite rightly sees the blind spots in both the modernist 'Spirit of Vatican' II and the Sedevacantist approaches to the interpretation of this great Council. The Pope wants to preserve the dignity, beauty and availability of the pre-Vatican liturgy and practices in tandem with the authentic teachings of Vatican II which never mandated a lot of the loose interpretations that were foisted on a long-suffering laity by trendy liturgists, catechists and theologians.

   Posted By: Gerry McIvor

9. It is with great sadness that half of the comments posted do not seem to see the log in their own eyes but are all to ready to try to find a speck their brothers'. The SSPX has never been outside the Church - the SSPX has always been loyal to Scripture, Tradition and even Magesterium. Those who vilify the SSPX and their teachings are really vilifying the true teachings of the Church - and therefore of God Himself. By doing so they would actually be committing heresy and as heretics have actually excommunicated themselves. Our Lord stated quite clearly you can tell someone by the fruit of their labour. The SSPX has large seminaries, lots of schools, families of faithful that actually HAVE families! The 'Novus Ordo' "church" is estimated to have 98% of "Catholics" taking birth control (a mortal sin), attendance at Sunday Mass is optional to them (attendence is mandatory EVERY Sunday or it is a mortal sin). Sadly, I could go on and on. You will never find the SSPX promoting, let alone tolerating, such heresies as women's "ordination", homosexual "marriage", "remarriage" after divorce, liturgical dancing, etc. I think the telling point is the fact the SSPX actually believes in the Ten Commandments. So who are the ones who really need "back into our Church"?

   Posted By: Dr. John Smythe

10. *chuckle* So the SSPX has "never" been outside the Church, Dr Smythe? Then what about the excommunications of ++Lefebvre and his fellow-bishops? Peter G, if Dr Smythe is right then this lot don't have to "rejoin" the Church, they are already there. Moind you, it is salutary to consider that SSPX is a society of clerics only which puts their followers in a sort of limbo, since they have been brainwashed into the belief that all but their spiritual leaders are in error; they are outside the church of their own volition than being formally tossed out. It appear that there is no negotiation with these people; rather like the old post V2 joke about the difference between a terrorist and a liturgist. Adam Armstrong, You are drawing a very long bow if you are trying to discredit the necessary and appropriate changes to the liturgy instituted post V2. Would you care to trot that one out to a representative of one of the eparchies? As for this example of the "clown mass", I have heard this one trotted out by the traddies as an example of the heinous effect of V2 and wonder whether this is an urban myth; much talked about but never seen. Thank God for the Ordinary in the vernacular ( despite the latest retrograde changes)-in particular the readings of Scripture and the congregational Lord's Prayer; it still can accomodate Gregorian chant and Renaissance polyphony despite what the traditionalists claim.

    Posted By: JR,Sydney

11. JR: I hardly think it is a long bow, considering it was the architects of VII that introduced and ran with the changes, often with the full approval or even participation of the hierarchy.
    As you said yourself, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
    As for the clown “mass,” I quote from “Pope Paul’s New Mass” by Michael Davies, chapter 10, oddly enough entitled “Send in the Clowns.” On the 2nd of April 1978 in Boston, Massachusetts, Fr. Joachim Lally said mass dressed as a clown, complete with face make up, balloons, dancing and carnival music. The Mass was broadcast on radio, and the fact that it occurred was admitted to in a letter to M. Davies by Cardinal Medeiros, who naturally took no action. This chapter and others are replete with other examples of abuses, but space does not permit their retelling
    Yes, this is an extreme example. Yes, the Novus Ordo can be celebrated respectfully, and I have met Novus Ordo Catholics who have been amazingly inspirational in the practice of their faith. The danger of the N.O. is that it lends itself to ad libbing and DIY abuses such as the above, which put the validity of the Sacrament in doubt. Dig a little deeper JR, and you will find the bow is not as long as you think.
    
    

    Posted By: Adam Armstrong

12. Adam Armstrong: A pity you could not enumerate further ‘abuses’ of the Mass. So there was a ‘clown mass’ back in 1978 - and broadcast on radio, yet? How can you vouch for the veracity of this? I am delighted that the bishop in question ignored the latter from the proto-temple policeman, Michael Davies. Perhaps he did not believe him.
    It is not the Novus Ordo which is respectful, but the members of the clergy who celebrate the Mass, and those of the laity who participate.
    No, Adam, the only digging I have bothered to do is into the peculiarities of the SSPX since its inception. I'd like to think that the barque of St Peter is big enough for us all, but not on the terms of the SSPX leadership.
    
    

    Posted By: JR,Sydney

13. Good news, JR. You don't have to take my word for it. YouTube is your friend. Try typing in clown mass, or halloween mass or polka mass, and a new world will be opened up to you.

    Posted By: Adam Armstrong

• » Advertise in CathNews

Email to Friend Please fill out the following details (fields marked with a * are mandatory):
Send To Email Address*:
Send To Name *:
Sent By Email Address*:
Sent By Name *:
Text to include in email:
Captcha validation:	please enter the code above:

^ Page Top

Comment on this article

More from this section

1. Pope warns against 'radical secularism'

   Pope Benedict warned visiting US bishops that "radical secularism" threatens the core values of American culture, and he called on the church in America, including politicians and other laypeople, to render "public moral witness" on crucial social issues, reports the Catholic News Service.

2. Christians pledge to surround UK protesters in 'ring of prayer'

   Christians from several denominations have pledged to hold a 'ring or prayer' around protesters outside St Paul's Cathedral in London, if bailiffs or police begin to forcibly remove them, reports the Independent Catholic News.

3. 'De-baptisms' growing in Europe

   A French Catholic man has become the first in his country to be officially "de-baptised", with a court ruling in favour of his lawsuit to have his name permanently deleted from church records, said a Religion News Service report in the Washington Post.

4. Church to launch global initiative to safeguard vulnerable

   Clergy from across the world will gather Rome in February for the launch of the Church's global initiative on safeguarding children and vulnerable adults, said a report in the Independent Catholic News.

5. Two Scottish midwives sue UK health board over abortion

   Scotland's largest health board has been taken to court by two Catholic staff who claim conscientious objections over abortion procedures were disregarded, reports the BBC.