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1. Thank you, John, for enduring this cost.
   Yet another prophet silenced... in the same week that the Australian Anglican communion celebrates twenty years of women's ordination.

   Posted By: vivien

2. She, the Holy Spirit, is having a tough time with the blokes in positions of power. Will they ever learn?

   Posted By: Josie Gregory

3. Fair's fair. You can't stand against the tenets of any institution and expect to remain a member of it.

   Posted By: Paul Keen

4. One more martyr for a worthy cause. How many does it take?

   Posted By: rita hayes rsm

5. There has never been, in the history of the Catholic church, the ordination of women to the priesthood.
   Don't try to slant this as about 'equality'; it's not.
   Christ established the priesthood for men, and graced females with the gift of motherhood since creation.
   The majority of young, practising Catholics are strongly in support of orthodox Christianity.
   We do not stand for the 'ordination' of women or any major change in official church teaching.
   The Catholic Church is not and will never be an institution that goes with the trends of the world, we must be faithful to Christ and to his bride, the church - and when it comes church teaching, remember the words of Christ, that he will ‘send the Holy Spirit the advocate, to lead us into all truth’.
   Changing our age old teachings willy-nilly to appease some sense of worldly justice will get us nowhere. If you want to see the rewards of being faithful to church teaching, take a look at all the dioceses and religious orders getting vocations - they are all faithful to the apostolic teachings and the traditional religious life.
   If you wish to be a full member of the church, then you need to accept all the teachings of that church.

   Posted By: Chris M.T.E

6. Not a bad way to leave an institution that fails in recognising its own history of women in early church leadership.
   On this International Women's Day, we celebrate John Shea's stance for the rights of women within the Catholic Church

   Posted By: terry fitz south brisbane

7. When I send my kids to a Catholic university, I trust that the people that lecture them will be faithful to the teachings of the Church.
   A radical concept, I grant you.
   Academics: my advice to you is fight your battles if you must, but don't drag our kids into your confusion.
   If this man is not faithful to his employer's conditions of employment, then he should have enough integrity to leave without being pushed.
   On the subject of women's ordination - I suspect when we all get to Heaven, God will say, 'Didn't you see that women's power and influence in the Church was all pervasive, and powerful in ways that didn't require the strictures of ordination.'
   I think a lot of women are wasting valuable time and energy pursuing this 'powerful' position of the priesthood, whilst missing the 'power' they already have to change the world.

   Posted By: Cathy

8. 'Fr Shea, a professor of pastoral care and counselling, asked church leaders for a theological explanation for why women are not being ordained to the priesthood'.
   If the reverend father seriously and honestly had never read or heard of any of the numerous formal theological explanations why the ordination of women is impossible, which the Holy See has issued regularly ever since the subject was first raised during the reign of Paul VI, then he deserved to be dismissed from his job on the grounds of ignorance and academic incompetence if nothing else.
   But far more likely he is well aware of these teachings and his question was merely rhetorical intended to attack the Church.

   Posted By: Peter G

9. Someone should examine the status of the allegedly infallible statement of JP11 on this matter
   This statement has been used to remove Bishop Morris, Fr Shea and others, and will continue to be used to silence those who doubt the veracity of the infallibility.
   I would welcome a serious analysis of the JP11 pronouncement against the criteria for infallible statements.
   I personally don't believe the statement qualifies.
   If it doesn't, then great injustice has been done, and will continue to be done, in the name of the Church, or at least in the name of its authority.

   Posted By: Garry

10. At the same time, we have Roy Bourgeois wondering if he will be dismissed from the Maryknolls.
    Couldn't wish for a better welcome to International Women's Day - is this just bad timing or is it a 'kindly reminder' that women have no real place within the Catholic Church.

    Posted By: Helen

11. Shouldn't we spending as much effort first and foremost in encouraging men to consider the priesthood as a fruitful and rewarding vocation?
    This is what we should all be praying for, more men in the priesthood.
    It will disasterous for the Church if this becomes a PC affirmative action gender war.
    I think Christ himself would in today's world be under attack as a mysogenist since he seems to have had a bias towards men as being the primary leaders and evangelizers of the Faith.

    Posted By: deric davidson

12. No real place, Helen? Why should we need to become visible priestesses in order to claim any sense of value?
    We're being conned by secular fads: this is not about equality and justice, but rather a confused understanding of power and self-worth.
    Our world needs Mother Mary more than ever.
    She has the highest honour in creation, and it's not because she had a great, visible position during her time on earth.
    I thank God that the Church knows better and stands firm on this matter.

    Posted By: Trish

13. Women's ordination is an issue of both justice and good governance.
    Pope Benedict's and JPII's views that women cannot be ordained do not stand up to conscientious objective analysis, and this is not a matter of faith and morals.
    The inclusion of women in the leadership of organisations throughout the world has, quite predictably, improved decision-making and demonstrated the shallowness of the arguments that women are intrinsically different as human beings.
    The Catholic Church's many problems are aggravated by the exclusive men's club clinging to its power.
    Even apart from justice, we need women in leadership positions in the Church. The intimidation of those prepared to speak up on this issue is unChrist-like.

    Posted By: Peter Johnstone

14. Late last year, the Patriarch of Lisbon, Card Policarpo is on record as saying that women will probably be ordained to the priesthood in the future.
    Bishop emeritus Ray Benjamin noted in a November 2011 letter to The Swag that 50% of the world's bishops actually believe in the priestly ordination of women.
    The apostolic letter of JP II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, is not an infallible statement. It belongs to the ordinary magisterium.
    It was not, is not, and never will be, infallible.
    It is not a matter of core faith but a teaching that has its historical roots in that particularly distorted Aristotelian and then Thomistic notion that females are defectively created males.
    But it's not really a gender issue. It's got more to do with cutting out one half of humanity from this sacramental function.
    Gender is a side issue but it is used nonetheless as a validation for the status quo.
    This was compounded by an aggressively fundamentalist reading of NT on discipleship and ministry.
    The crowning achievement of this view is that Jesus, the great High Priest, formally and intentionally ordained twelve men to the episcopate at the Last Supper.
    Some purists even suggest the text (Latin, of course), rubrics, vestments etc. used at this 'consecration' of these apostolic hierarchs.

    Posted By: David Timbs

15. Garry: You want someone to make an infallible pronouncement about whether an 'allegedly' (according to 'allegations' made by the Holy See itself and and endorsed by the same pope) infallible pronouncement by a pope is 'really' infallible.
    Whom do you suggest for this role?

    Posted By: Peter G

16. Chris M.T.E. : There are a number of theologians who argue that women were ordained, most probably as deacons, in the early church.
    Historical-theological work by K. K. Fitzgerald, Phyllis Zagano, and Gary Macy argue for the sacramental ordination of women as deacons, others disagree.
    Therefore your ‘definitive’ statement in reference to the ordination of women is incorrect insomuch as it isn’t proven.
    It is a matter of equality, justice and common sense that women are given the same rights as men.
    By strictly adhering to the current ruling, the Church is missing out on many who seek to serve it, fully and completely.
    Imagine how much vitality would be injected into it if it treated women as equals?
    You may think that “orthodox Christianity” is the ultimate solution but it is the philosophy that has led to the current problems (my opinion of course).
    Finally, the church has always adapted to change; all you need do is study its history.
    The church is not infallible, it is an organisation comprising of human beings who make mistakes.
    To accept all its teachings as the only truth would be folly.

    Posted By: Jeff KETTERING TAS 7155

17. Given the fact that Jesus never ordained anyone, I wonder what he thinks of it all.
    It's strange that the People of God can be censored on such a matter when there is no mention of Christian priests in the New testament.

    Posted By: Francis

18. If I were a religious and I couldn't abide this teaching, I think I would leave.
    

    Posted By: Peter in Canberra

19. The whole notion of women becoming priests comes down to a confusion between equality and equity, as do many contemporary debates.

    Posted By: Mary

20. 'The apostolic letter of JP II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, is not an infallible statement. It belongs to the ordinary magisterium.'
    David Timbs, that fact that a teaching is of the ordinary magisterium doesn't preclude its being infallible. See Lumen Gentium para. 25.

    Posted By: HH

21. Hugh Henry: True, but not in this case. See Canon 749.3,
    'No doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless it is clearly established as such.' Ordinatio Sacerdotalis does not establish this authority.
    It belongs to the Ordinary Magisterium along with Humanae Vitae.
    To claim these as ex Cathedra, de fide, doctrines is a clear example of that bureaucratic Curial 'infallibility creep' which, instead of adding credibility to the Magisterium, has caused it, in all probability, irreparable damage.

    Posted By: David Timbs

22. Jeff: As a non-Catholic you are entitled to your views, but we Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is not a merely man-made organisation like other churches, but that it was founded and is guided by God Himself Who guarantees (as He promised the first pope and the first bishops) that as far as the doctrines concerning faith and morals which they and their successors teach His Church, they never will and never possibly can teach anything which is not true.

    Posted By: Peter G

23. DT: 'To claim these as ex Cathedra, de fide, doctrines...'
    Let's straighten this out with some necessary distinctions.
    Ex Cathedra doctrines are those taught infallibly by the Pope himself, from the chair.
    De fide doctrines obviously include Ex Cathedra teaching.
    But other doctrines taught by the ordinary magisterium can also de fide (and so infallible.)
    Your remark, 'Ordinatio Sacerdotalis does not establish this authority', only goes to the issue as to whether the teaching in that letter is proclaimed Ex Cathedra thereby, not as to whether or not it is de fide on other grounds.
    Whether or not the teaching of O.S. is ex cathedra de fide is indeed a debated point.
    But the stronger claim is that, regardless of its status as an ex cathedra infallible pronouncement, O.S. contains teaching infallibly proposed for belief by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.
    Confusing these distinctions, you seem to be deploying Canon 749.3 in a manner so as to apply ex cathedra criteria to ordinary magisterium de fide/infallible teaching.
    A category mistake which leads ineluctably to 'infallibility shrinkage'.

    Posted By: HH

24. Fr Shea should have sat down and talked with Dr Peter Kreeft, professor in the philosophy department at his own Boston College, who has spoken on the topic of women's ordination and has talks available to everyone by podcast.
    So if the answers are out there and he is still questioning, maybe he actually doesn't want to hear the answer.

    Posted By: AD

25. David T: this dogma has been freely and fully proclaimed by a pope, explicitly stating that he was speaking in his capacity as the Successor of Peter for the purpose of confirming his brother bishops in the truth, and explicitly stating that all of the Christian faithful of all times and all places are bound to affirm it.
    Not only that, but the Holy See then took the extraordinary step of actually issuing a separate declaration a year later, confirmed by the same pope, explicitly confirming that the previous declaration is in fact an infallible declaration.
    What possible further confirmation would be necessary in order to “clearly establish” to your satisfaction the fact that this is infallible dogma?

    Posted By: Peter G

26. Peter G: The last time an infallible dogma was proclaimed as of the faith of the Church was in 1950.
    Pius XII, after an exhaustive consultation with the world's Bishops and having heard from them in the affirmative, defined ex Cathedra and de fide the doctrine of the Assumption.
    No such process was undertaken with Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.
    It was written by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of the CDF on behalf of the Pope. There was no world wide consultation with the College of Bishops to accertain if it was believed by their people as a core to their faith.
    There was no ex Cathedra promclamation and it does not satisfy the Church's own demands in Canon 749.3 that it be clearly stated and proclaimed solemnly to be so ex Cathedra.
    It was an almost entirely 'in house' business from start to finish. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is not a core element in the faith of the Church - not even remotely near it.
    As a doctrine, it is open to development.
    The same goes for Humanae Vitae with the difference that well over 90% of Catholics have demonstrated very clearly indeed since 1968 that it is not core to the faith either.
    If the Sensus Fidelium does not receive something that it is taught, then it does not belong to the core doctrine. It's the Holy Spirit's way of keeping the Magisterium honest and responsible.

    Posted By: David Timbs

27. David Timbs raises the important and underlying issue in regards to the unnecessary heat surrounding women's ordination.
    That issue is how 'in house business' has become more and more the central proclamation the the Church.
    In recent years, centralised interests have more and more identified their ideological views as that of the actual Church, and that somehow the actual robust voice of the Church, and of the Spirit that breathes life into it, has been replaced with tight voices of fear and insularity.
    The stance against women's ordination clearly does not have the authority that some have contrived for it.
    No matter how often some may stamp their feet and assert for assertion's sake so to simply exhaust other voices, women as priests will not, and cannot, go away.
    So then, what is at stake is Church or narrow ideology; The Spirit or fear; the self-interested few or the People of God?

    Posted By: Mark Johnson

28. The 'deaconesses' in the early church were women who baptised adult females. They were not priests, nor were they ordained.
    It was an important role because baptism in those days was by full immersion of the unclothed body.
    A second function of the deaconess was to visit single women in the Roman Empire.
    Roman law forbade men to visit single women in their homes, so the church sent deaconess as a kind of pastoral visit.
    They also carried Holy Communion to these women if they were unable to attend Mass. (But we must remember that back in those days all the faithful took the consecrated bread back to their homes.)
    The deaconess was never ordained and their important role in the early church quickly declined with the fall of the Roman Empire.
    The decline in church attendance cannot be attributed to the 'inability of the church to keep up with the times.'
    One can easily deduce from observation that countries which still hold on to traditional values still have high church attendance rates (e.g. many parts of Africa and the Pacific Islands.)
    You don't see people from Samoa jumping up and down for the 'ordination' of women in order to make the church relevant to the 'people of God.'
    The majority of supporters for the changing of church teachings on issues such as the male only priesthood and contraception are over 50.
    Among the young there is little support, in fact, the majority of young practising Catholics regard fidelity to church teaching as something good and essential.

    Posted By: C.M.T.E

29. Mark Johnson: What you refer to as centralised interests is in fact the Church's teaching office, against whose pronouncements on this issue you assume privileged and certain knowledge arising from 'the Spirit'. Which 'Spirit' is that, and how can you know?

    Posted By: John

30. David Timbs and Mark Johnson, read Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 25: This infallibility .... extends as far as the deposit of Revelation extends... this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff enjoys in virtue of his office ... his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church ... need no approval of others, nor do they allow an appeal to any other judgment.'
    There is no requirement for a pope to consult with anyone else before pronouncing an infallible doctrine. Much less is there any requirement for anyone else to 'receive' it to supposedly 'make' it infallible.
    The pope is perfectly free to do the entire proccess in house, as you put it.

    Posted By: Peter G

31. Thank you, Cathy. The lay ministry for both men and women is more effective than the clergy.

    Posted By: mike stewart

32. John: Are you so willing to pit the sensus fidelium against the peculiar misuse of the teaching office?
    And too, that ex-cathedra teaching should not speak the mind of the Church?
    What is also of much concern is that the teaching office be used to so subvert its own authority in this way.
    Once again, haste so to elevate a perspective in a most peciliar way has only succeeded in further eroding the very teaching authority that was meant to be safe-guarded.

    Posted By: Mark Johnson

33. Mark: Where the grounds for your assertion that the 'sensus fidelium' opposes the teaching authority of the Church on this issue, and where your evidence that the Church's teaching office has been misused?

    Posted By: John

34. Cathy: John Shea taught me more about God in 5 days than I learned in 13years in an Irish Catholic school so trust me, your children would have been in good hands. The man is an inspiration.

    Posted By: key

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