CathNews - a Service of Church Resources

Have Your Say 

Recent Comments

1. The gospels were edited by men at a time when only men were heard and when men ruled and when women were considered dills (for the want of a better word). Women had no say in anything at all.
   For that reason, it is quite possible that these churchmen (many of whom were anti-women) would have left out things Paul and others wrote regarding the ministry of women in the early church. If any had been ordained, then that certainly would have been left out. Matthew, Mark and Luke tell us an angel told a group of women (Mat; they went themselves in M & L) TO GO TELL THE MEN - THE APOSTLES - that Jesus had risen. John tells us that Jesus appeared to MARY FIRST (NOT TO THE MEN); What more do you want?
   Pope, Bishops and Cardinals (some of them) forget that if not for women, they (the men) would not be here because it is women who nurtured them in the womb and afterwards. It was women who taught them the faith and women who "walked their early journey with them". If they valued this, then they would also value women and their iimportant and unique role in the church's ministry.
   
   I wonder how Cardinal Pell feels about being a "second call"!

   Posted By: Ellen W.

2. Rather than arbitrary quotas, the experts chosen to advise the Synod should be the best-qualified people available, regardless of sex. God forbid that the Church should ever fall prey to the idiotic, divisive, destructive, disruptive and inefficient politically correct "50% quota" idea which many government, corporate and other organisations have been sucked into, to their detriment.
   
   The assertion that " texts referring to female disciples and coworkers are never read on a Sunday" is quite false. Sr Schenck must have missed quite a few Sunday Masses for the last 40 years. Including Easter Sunday and Christmas Day!

   Posted By: Ronk

3. You have a very creative imagination Ellen, but your story has no basis in historical fact. The early Christians were quite fanatical about preserving intact the true story of what Christ had taught and done. They certainly were not going to deliberately suppress part of the truth, even if they were, as you absurdly claim, "anti-women".
   
   You assert that some unknown male chauvinist deleted women from the story, but then for some reason forgot to delete the most striking women-centred episode of all - that Christ first revealed His Resurrection to women! If some male chauvinist tried to edit the story, he did a remarkably incompetent job of it.
   
   And of course the structure of the Church's hierarchy of male pope, bishops, priests and deacons was firmly in place before the Gospels were even written. You seem to have swallowed the silly fundamentalist myth that the Church is, or should be, "based on the Bible".
   
   Please name these popes, bishops and cardinals who, you claim, "forget that if not for women, they would not be here because it is women who nurtured them in the womb and afterwards...who taught them the faith and "walked their early journey with them"and do not "value women and their iimportant and unique role in the church's ministry."???
   If there is one thing which ALL priests I have ever known have in common, it is their great respect, gratitude and remembrance of their mothers who taught them the faith.
   
   

   Posted By: Ronk

4. A woman who would make a wonderful preacher is Sister Christina Neunzerling of the Josephite Order in New Zealand. Her order of Nuns has done wonderful work training us who teach the Faith in schools as well as those who have completed post graduate studies May the Church really get on with INCLUSIVITY!

   Posted By: Helen Le Marque

5. Let us be fair, it is true that you do not see any serious catechetical work in Church. I am sure that there are many generous women supporting the mission of the Church, where do you see the modern Priscillas? (Priscilla was a Jewess that together with her husband accompanied St Paul).
   I am only hesitant when in pushing a certain feminism that does not forgive neither accepts the message of the Church, the risk is to lose Christ. Christ came to break down the wall of division; one is no more important than the other but there are different roles in the way we serve one another.

   Posted By: lrtch

6. Ellen, so how exactly do we know apart from your obviously inspired revelation, that incidents depicting the ordination of women were deliberately left out of the Gospels? Actually, the early Fathers (not to mention the Gospels themselves) are quite explicit in acknowledging the role of the women, particularly of Mary, the Mother of God, of Mary and Martha, of Mary Magdalen, of the Canaanite woman, and so on in salvation history. Women do have an important role, just a different one to men.
   
   As for your insinuations against the Cardinal, I can't speak for him, but I should hope he has sufficient humility to acknowledge that he exists to serve God and His Church, and therefore not really care whether he is called to labour at the second hour or the 11th.

   Posted By: Kiran

7. And your point is Ellen?
   
   Quite frankly I think the Church puts too much effort into 'women's issues'. With women dominating Catholic Churches, isn't it about time that the Church put such an effort into helping men's spirituality?
   
   Anh why are women not subjected for the issues in our Churches. Whatever happened to our convents, nothing short of diabolical and disgraceful that female vocations have completely dried up. How about women taking responsibility for the amount of sexual immortality in society, seeing that it is women that set the moral tone of a society.
   
   What has happened to groups such as the Legion of Mary that used to be the backbone of our Churches? Why is there no issue that Catholic women (with a few exceptions) appear no 'different' from the rest of pagan society.
   
   Why don't we see young mothers at daily Mass anymore?
   
   Ellen, your rant is useless and in my opinion, women should take a good look at the road they have taken and re-assess whether they are truly living a Christian lifestyle in the mould of true Catholic saints that sought to serve Christ.

   Posted By: Ian

8. It is a good thing that Rome is a long way from Sydney and even further from Bathurst!

   Posted By: anonymous

9. Surely there is value and truth in some of the things spoken by a Sister that's been active in ministry over so many year;
   As a man with family and children, I think its outrageous and fascist that different opinions are taken as contempt... surely the spirit of God is moving in her (the women) too, and the image of God must also be honoured in the person of Sr Schenck as any children of God.
   
   The assertion that "women taking responsibility for the amount of sexual immorality in society" is at the least- obscenely sexist and devoid of any respect for the feminine aspect of our faith, and distraught s the truth at best.
   
   "women dominating Catholic Churches"- is another obviously retarded sort of comments I find most offensive and divorced of any reality, coming from being a male member of the Church, all I see is men all over and men setting most (if not all) of its policies- the Church is a highly patriarchal institution, to put it politely.
   
   Some commentators on this section, often leave me in shock of their ignorance and serious lack of civil education given in the field of Church History, Theology, Philosophy...or indeed- common sense or propriety of behaviour and language from their own homes/friends/community/church;
   
   Some comments are simply downright rude and disrespectful of the people they’re referring to- for example: Ronk saying things like: “Sr Schenck must have missed quite a few Sunday Masses for the last 40 years. Including Easter Sunday and Christmas Day!”- I mean, that is just low… to insult/demean another person by such sort of ill-mannered language; Once again, don’t you have any feelings? didn’t your family/friends/community/church taught you compassion? Or civility for the least?
   
   Sr Schenck made an excellent point of reflection; but I’m shocked and outraged at some of the downright disgusting comments made on this piece of news.
   

   Posted By: TJ Lawson

10. The "editing" was not as some feminists would have us believe. Some just don't like the Gospels as they judge them and wish to 'edit' them according to the fashion of our own ideological times.
    Feminist 'exegesis' of the Gospels is really EISEGESIS as it is based upon having a bee in one's bonnet. It is unconvincing and even serious feminists know this is the cse and should inform the feminists who are within the Church to give up the wishful thinking of EISEGESIS.

    Posted By: Michael Webb

11. Actually, tjlawson, Ronk is right. There is no rudeness therein involved, humour and (extremely mild) irony, but that isn't being rude. Quite a large number of texts showing women in positions of significance crop up in the Sunday readings cycles. Also, "a full spectrum of views" about female leadership can perhaps be given an orthodox meaning, but to me, it suggests a willingness to accept women's ordination. To oppose that, as a Catholic, surely is not rude or wrong.

    Posted By: Kiran

12. TJ, are you trying to make a sick joke, or are you serious? You maximally vilify those who dare to disagree with you as "fascist", "retarded", "obscenely sexist", "divorced of any reality", you profess to be shocked at their "ignorance and serious lack of civil education or common sense"; and yet in the same breath you complain about THEIR lack of propriety, rudeness and disrespect!!!
    
    It is a fact that the readings which the Catholic Church compulsorily requires to be read at Sunday Mass, include numerous texts referring to female disciples and coworkers. A fact which Sr Schenck blatantly contradicted. OK, I admit that my polite rhetorical statement that she must have missed a lot of Sunday Masses is not the only possibility, but it is the kindest and most respectful one. The only other explanations I can see are that she went to Mass but frequently didn't listen to the readings; or she is simply telling what she knows is a deliberate lie to advance her obvious political agenda.
    
    Oh well at least you have finally admitted the fact that the Church is a highly patriarchal institution. That's some small progress in your understanding of the Church. Keep trying and God bless.

    Posted By: Ronk

13. I bet you Sr Christine Schenk is a feral Nun that does not wear a habit and her order is dying. Good things when all the liberal orders die off and all the orders that have remained faithful to Christ remain.
    
    And then we can truly know women that serve Jesus Christ in humility.

    Posted By: Ian

14. Ian, you officially became a feral Catholic in this forum- Didn't your mother/father/family/community teach you how to have some simple human respect towards another (forget about Catholic love/mercy/compassion); you're the sort of Catholic that does disservice to any faith, let alone the Catholic faith.
    
    "I bet you Sr Christine Schenk is a feral Nun that does not wear a habit and her order is dying. Good things when all the liberal orders die off and all the orders that have remained faithful to Christ remain."

    Posted By: TJ Lawson

15. Ian, I wouldn't be bothered by any criticism that you are not showing sufficient "respect", coming from someone who calls anyone who disagrees with his/her obnoxious and irrational assertions "fascist retards" and other such choice insults.
    
    Sr Schenck is right that many people mistakenly believe that St Paul was anti-women. But I have never met or heard of anybody who is such a misogynist that he believes "that Jesus called only men". Apparently another of her ignorant fantasies or perhaps deliberate lies.
    
    Btw TJ, I thought of another possibility why Sr Schenk might have made the obviously and ludicrously false assertion "that texts referring to female disciples and coworkers are never read on a Sunday. " Maybe the priest or lectors at her church illicitly deleted or omitted to proclaim many texts or parts of texts from the Lectionary. I would have said this abuse of the liturgy was extremely unlikely, but having seen the monstrous distortions which have been revealed at South Brisbane, almost no abuse of the Mass would now surprise me.

    Posted By: Ronk

16. Dear friends
    
    I seem to have attracted some negative energy from some who doubt our good intentions. Be at peace.
    
    There is extensive scholarly documentation of women’s stories deleted from lectionary texts. Visit http://www.futurechurch.org/watw/womeninbibleandlectionary.htm
    And http://www.futurechurch.org/watw/AmnesiaInLectionary.pdf
    
    The Luke 8:1-3 reading referring to the women in Jesus' Galilean discipleship is never read on a Sunday. Jesus' apostolic commission to Mary of Magdala to "Go and tell my Brothers” about the resurrection is read only on Easter Monday, never on Sunday. Likewise the Romans 16 reading about the women leaders Paul called "coworkers" and “apostles” (Prisca, Phoebe, Junia etc) is never read on Sunday, and worse, the weekday reading completely deletes Phoebe, called diakonos...(the same descriptor Paul uses for his own ministry).
    
    Our Church is far from perfect…but it would be wrong to be silent about this historical (and probably unconscious) sexism.
    
    

    Posted By: Sr. Christine Schenk

17. Sr Schenk, you're trying to move the goalposts.
    
    We pointed out that your assertion that "texts referring to female disciples and coworkers are never read on a Sunday" is obviously, ludicrously and abundantly false. As you have not denied saying this, we can only assume the report of your statement is accurate. (In case you don't have access to a Lectionary, I'll find several disproofs of your assertion in it for you if you like when I have time.)
    
    Now you are trying to claim that we said that EVERY part of every Biblical text which mentions women disciples and co-workers is read on Sundays. We said no such thing, so you can throw away that false straw-man argument.
    
    And it is quite false to assert that Scripture passages which are not in the Lectionary have been "deleted from lectionary texts". They were never part of the Lectionary. The Lectionary is not intended to embrace the whole Bible. It includes those parts which are most useful for edification of the faithful. No doubt the Pope and bishops saw little benefit in making congregations sit through pasages such as the long genealogies, or the long list of greetings in Romans 16 (which always reminds me of an Oscar acceptance speech!). And contrary to your assertion, St Paul's greetings in Romans 16 are to numerous MEN as well as women. And neither here nor anywhere else in Scripture is any woman called an Apostle nor does he refer to "women leaders". More plain facts which you blatantly contradict and apparently expect intelligent people to simply believe your assertions.
    
    You may fool the simple with your misleading assertion that because St Paul calls both Phoebe and himself "diakonos" (='servant", and actually he uses the feminine form for her, not the male form "diakonos") that she was an Apostle, bishop, priest or deacon like him. But don't expect anyone who knows a little history and Greek to take your assertion seriously.
    
    When you engage in such blatant misrepresentations of obvious facts, of course people doubt your good intentions. And it seems to be you who is filled with "negative energy".
    Instead of being obsessed with the Church's supposed "sexism" and trying to invent a "Futurechurch", why don't you actively and helpfully participate in the one true Church we have now, which Christ founded and which He promised would endure to the end of time?
    
    

    Posted By: Ronk

• » Advertise in CathNews

Email to Friend Please fill out the following details (fields marked with a * are mandatory):
Send To Email Address*:
Send To Name *:
Sent By Email Address*:
Sent By Name *:
Text to include in email:
Captcha validation:	please enter the code above:

^ Page Top

Comment on this article

More from this section

1. Vatican disciplines Medjugorje adviser

   The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has informed the bishop of the Medjugorje region that a priest who served as spiritual director for the alleged visionaries has been disciplined for failing to cooperate with a Vatican inquiry.

2. Pope praises Paul VI

   In a letter marking the 30th anniversary of the death of Pope Paul VI, Pope Benedict has praised the late pontiff saying that his contribution in an age of challenges and problems is becoming increasingly evident.

3. BXVI writes 2 Xt3 fans

   Pope Benedict has sent a message to Catholic social networking site, Xt3, to mark 50 days since his World Youth Day Mass at Randwick.