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1. Just a couple more of those 'New Age' nonsense weirdo 'priests'. They need to return to the seminary and redo their priestly formation, as obviously they have fallen into a spiritual amnesia, and no longer know what they are, or to whom they belong. Next they'll be engaging in 'Goddess' worship. How sad!

   Posted By: STan

2. Hi, I believe its best to go to the source, rather than to be informed "second hand" about a church issue via a secular newspaper. I've done a reasonably extensive web search for the referred to You Tube Clip and cannot find it. Would anyone have a web link for it?

   Posted By: Gerard

3. Read the histories of the Papacy and the church in the middle ages(let's just forget the weekly pedophilia claims) and we should thank God for the priests and parishioners at South Brisbane. Deo Gratias.

   Posted By: john M Costigan

4. It seems ridiculous to consider closing the Church at St Mary's South Brisbane. Surely there is enough evidence for the Archbishop to remove the current parish leaders and appoint a new Parish Priest who will bring Catholicity back to the parish. Failure to do so will lead to further questions about Archbishop Bathersby's leadership of the CATHOLIC Church in Brisbane.

   Posted By: Pat O'Brien

5. So FOUR years ago the two priests at St Mary's were "ordered" to revert to the correct form of baptism.
   An order from their archbishop cannot mean much to these priests.
   
   In his letter of August 2008 to Fr Kennedy and the community at St Mary's, Ab Bathersby states that his 2004 letter was just dismissed and perhaps even ridiculed.........and his authority as Archbishop is scarcely recognised by the priests and people in this parish etc
   
   It looks like nothing has changed.
   
   I wonder if they still use their own Eucharistic prayer; eliminate important sections of the Mass; have female and non-Catholic preachers and all the rest ?
   
   I wonder what else has to happen and for how long before any ACTION is taken ?

   Posted By: paul

6. Nuisance makers have little else to do but make mischief. If they looked in their own backyard and corrected their own faults, they would do a lot better.
   There are far worse things happening in the church than the one this story tells.
   Grow up!
   This church is full for Masses, unlike many others where everything is stodgy, stale and sometimes even unprayerful.

   Posted By: Nell M

7. The priests and people of St Mary's Parish South Brisbane have shown a praiseworthy willingness to compromise with Church authorities on the baptismal formula. It is better to tolerate some injustices (within reason) rather than precipitate a split in the Church.
   
   However, there is also room for movement on the part of the authorities. The aim should be to preserve the meaning of the words rather than the literal words. If we must preserve the literal words of Mat. 28:19, then we should use the original Greek. The English translation "baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" distorts the meaning of the Gospel text. In Mat. 28:19 the Greek preposition is not en ( = in), implying "by the authority of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" but eis (=into, in the sense of moving into something from outside it) implying "into the community of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit", that is, into the Christian community, the Church. The same grammatical form is used in 1 Cor. 12:13 "we were all baptized into one body", and in Gal. 3:27 "we were baptized into Christ". Acts 8:16 attests to a different baptismal formula used in the early Church "they had only been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus". The Apostles did not feel the need to re-baptize the people concerned. They just confirmed them, through the laying on of hands, whereupon they received the Holy Spirit.

   Posted By: John Flanagan

8. This is sad. I feel for the youngster involved and the parents.
   
   Does the strange liturgy that goes on at St Mary's mean that parishioners have been denied the Eucharist by the actions of the priests?
   
   By not following the correct liturgical procedures when celebrating the Mass, have Masses become invalid and therefore Jesus is not present in the Eucharist?
   
   How long has it been since Jesus has been present in the Eucharist there?
   
   The parishioners should expect more from these priests and the priests should know better.
   
   It is a sad saga, which shames the Brisbane archdiocese. I hope this is all sorted out soon. A change in leadership at St Mary's might be beneficial to all.
   
   
   
   
   

   Posted By: N Jessop

9. Actually in the Middle Ages the Catholic Church also founded Universities and Schools throughout Europe with the first Cathedral Schools in Paris and Oxford.
   
   Also the Middle ages gave rise to Benedictine Monastaries and Franciscan Spirituality and Dominican Spirituality.
   
   In the United States of AMerica,the Catholic Church still has problems here but it's about high time to return of Reforming the Catholic Liturgy.
   
   Make the mass with More GREGORIAN CHANTS and More LATIN EUCHARISTIC PRAYERS.
   
   More Eucharistic AND MARIAN DEVOTIONS. As A Young CAtholic bring back AUTHENTIC CATHOLICISM THE ONE DENIED BY MY GENERATION.

   Posted By: Mark

10. I saw the youtube and heard the whacky words of Baptism - it really did not seem like a sacrament at all. I know about 6 other people who saw it on youtube as well. Since then, the link has been altered so it can not be accessed on the original link which was:
    
    http://au.youtube.com/login?next=/watch%3Fv%3De0gDlOXWfRQ
    
    What will it take for Archbishop Bathersby to act like a leader, and not like a wimp? Enough people saw the original youtube and are scandalised about it. How hard is it for him to insist on the correct words for Baptism and to follow up on this himself? Do it nicely, do it diplomatically - but please DO IT!!

    Posted By: Skye

11. Archbishop Bathersby should stop sending the parish priests letters that they will only laugh at and ignore.
    
    He needs to act and should have acted years ago by removing the faculties of these priests and of having them recant and then to commit to traditional and magisterial Catholic practice in all areas of their priestly ministry.
    
    Many bishops today are just like Bathersby. All bishops owe it to their fellow priests and especially to the laity to apply immediate suspension of faculties to priests who cannot even do a valid baptism let alone the other pantheist nonsense that is going on.

    Posted By: Michael Webb

12. It is time Archbishop Bathersby took positive action against these people who do not want to be Catholics. They should be given the ultimate punishment for continued disobedience and sacrilege. Archbishop Bathersby should expel the sham priests who use this Church for their own purposes and return it for use by Catholics.
    But looking at Archbishop Bathersby's track rrecord it might not be a bad idea for him to be moved on and replaced by someone with serious beliefs. The Archbishop looks like part of the problem and not the solution.

    Posted By: Anthony

13. Personally, Mark, I'm a young person who is a much bigger fan of the vernacular. I like to understand what I'm saying and what's being said to me. Anyway, I'm sure God is just as capable of understanding my English prayers as he is my Latin ones...
    
    I laugh at the hypocrisy in statements of people who say "these people are bad for changing the words of the Mass!" and then go on to state that "the Mass needs reforming - but in the way I PERSONALLY like, not in the way that THEY like."

    Posted By: Alex Knight

14. Why has Archbishop Bathersby allowed these renegades to control this parish for so long? Surely he has a duty to the orthodox parishioners of South Brisbane to make sure the rites are conducted there in the standard manner.

    Posted By: Charles

15. I say burn these misguided priests at the stake.
    
    Who wants to build the bonfire and who will light the match?
    
    And Cardinal Pell could dispatch some of his Opus Dei priests to St Mary’s to perform an exorcism in the church building.
    
    

    Posted By: Rob Doran

16. A few commenters have bemoaned the 'nitpickers with nothing better to do', pointing to the attendances and the social inclusiveness of the parish. Even that the Church authorities should compromise on the formula for baptism.
    
    But the Church's ultimate mission is to get people into heaven and baptism is the ordinary means by which this is effected and as established by Christ.
    
    The Church simply does not have the power to amend the words precisely because they were given to us by Jesus Christ, incarnate God.
    
    To do so would be to say that Christ was not God.
    
    For the priests involved, for all of their appeal to 'social justice', their actions in relation to baptism are an act of heinous violence to the justice they owe to the candidates for baptism and their parents.
    
    Truly the faithful ask for an egg and Frs Fitz and Kennedy give them a scorpion.

    Posted By: Peter

17. There are a whole lot of religious fanatics/zealots here... there is even a Catholic Fascist- calling for the killing of priests by barbaric murderous methods of burning a live person at a stake.
    Some of you lot make me sick.
    Where is Love? Where is Compassion in your hearts? The message of Jesus is lost in all of this militant ritual-policing.
    Isn't God- the creator, the redeemer, and the sanctifier, the liberator and the sustainer?

    Posted By: TJ Lawson

18. The two priests should be transferred and obedient priests should be appointed who will be able to take on the challenge to come back to normalcy. Archbishop Bathersby should confront the priests personally. Letters have been ignored for too long.Quick Action.

    Posted By: Hazel R.

19. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone....

    Posted By: DD

20. Have you all gone out of your mind?!- I mean...
    
    "heinous violence to the justice they owe to the candidates for baptism and their parents.
    Truly the faithful ask for an egg and Frs Fitz and Kennedy give them a scorpion."- Peter
    
    Baptism is more than following a Formula, or getting into heaven with a utterance of few words or sprinkling of some water... it is most of all- about relationships (Father-Son-Spirit...?), community and support;
    
    at the rate this chain of postings are going, i'll think twice before I get initiated into the Christian fold.... there is so much obsession with using the 'law' to exclude people; Jesus himself was appalled by these sorts of unjust religious law that seeks to model a faith based on narcissistic 'exclusive membership'...
    
    Seriously people, WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
    
    He would teach us to love...he would be appalled that we exclude others from coming to him. "In my Father's house there are plenty of rooms"
    
    

    Posted By: TJ Lawson

21. As I read the comments submitted so far, there is clear evidence of a broad spectrum of views in the Church about St Mary's. The stakes are high but what is clear is the measured approach of Archbishop Bathersby who has not chosen the way of high-handed authority but the way of respecting the St Mary's Community and inviting them to respond in a sensible way so that they may remain within the Catholic Community of the Archdiocese. I too am concerned and believe that change must occur, but I also believe that the Archbishop's gentle but firm approach will bear more fruit in the long term. We are so fortunate to have him as our Pastor.

    Posted By: Dave

22. Critics of St Mary's. Just give us a break from your self-righteous judgements, calls for punishment, demands for expulsion etc. Let the congregation work things out with the Archbishop Bathersby, as I'm sure they will.
    
    Do you really want to close down or cripple a parish that is so successful in attracting people to Christianity? For that seems to be the logical outcome of some of your proposals.
    
    But then, it seems that some traditionalists will only be happy in some exclusive little church that has more in common with the Exclusive Brethren than the Catholic Church to which I belong.
    
    

    Posted By: Conor Bradley

23. John M Costigan, your comment seems totally irrelevant. Will performing invalid "baptisms" somehow stamp out sex abuse (not "pedophilia" (sic)) and prevent the abuses which you imply were committed by the the Papacy and the Church in the middle ages? Nonsense.
    
    TJ, as usual the irony in Rob Doran's comment went straight over your head.
    I would draw the line at capital punishment, but Fr Kennedy should be forcibly retired and Fr Fitzpatrick, who has no legal right to perform any priestly function at St Marys or anywhere else in South East Queensland, should be sent back whence he came.

    Posted By: Ronk

24. To TW Lawson.
    
    You misunderstood my tongue in cheek comment. I was suggesting that other contributors are being a tad hysterical by calling for these two devoted and caring priests to be replaced etc.
    
    If the critics knew these two committed priests they would not be so hostile. These priests talk about God's love for all. St Mary’s is probably the most loving and living parishes I have had the privilege of participating in.
    
    The last time I read the New Testament I didn't see any particular chapter or verse stating the exact wording or formula for a Catholic baptism or for that matter how a Eucharistic celebration should be conducted.
    
    On the other hand rules are for insecure people who don't understand the real nature of authority. An example is St Mary’s Cathedral Sydney where priests in recent times have been known to hurl Canon Law at penitents in confession, rather than refer to the merciful, forgiving love of Christ.
    
    This entire episode reminds me of the Inquisition. So I hope TW Lawson that you now get my point.
    
    Regards
    

    Posted By: Rob Doran

25. "Baptism is more than following a Formula"
    
    I agree TJ Lawson, but the point is if you don't follow the formula it isn't baptism at all.
    
    "he would be appalled that we exclude others from coming to him" - If these Catholic priests administer the Sacrament of Baptism correctly, they will be ensuring that the initiates do come to him supernaturally. If they do not it is they who are doing the excluding.

    Posted By: Peter

26. TJ, you treated us to a lecture on the proper behaviour for a member of the Dominican order. Now you tell us that you are not even a Christian. How can anyone believe or take seriously anything you say?
    
    If you think Jesus isn't "exclusive" about His Church, try reading the gospels. He's certainly much more forthright than Abp Bathersby. And the only people "excluding" anyone from membership of the Church are the people at St Mary's who are giving false "baptism" when they are asked for true baptism. Despite being repeatedly warned not to do so. It's hard to think of a more horrific offence against Christ and His Church and those seeking membership in it.
    
    Conor, no-one is seeking to close down or cripple St Mary's Just to return it to Catholicism. If people want a generic, undemanding, all-inclusive, amorphous "Christian" church, there are plenty of them available in Brisbane, without hijacking a Catholic parish.
    
    Rob Doran, obviously your New Testament reading skipped over the gospel according to St Matthew. And in any case the Catholic Church is not a "Bible Based" religion. Christ appointed the Apostles and their successors to rule the Church, but even they have no power to change things such as the necessary matter for baptism or the other sacraments, which Christ instituted.
    
    The mind boggles at how you claim to know what is said to various penitents in the Confessional. And I can think of many situations where it would be very appropriate, indeed essential, for a priest to point out the provisions of Canon Law in the confessional. If people think they haven't done anything wrong, they have no business going to Confession.

    Posted By: Ronk

27. So the eucharistic words of institution that our eucharistic prayers say Jesus said, were not said by Jesus. Does that make our eucharists invalid?

    Posted By: Francis

28. WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
    
    Most of the words/language were in Aramaic-Hebrew, not English, or Latin, or Italian... most of what we do in church liturgy is probably null and void in many of your terms.
    
    Ronk, there seems to be way too much over-simplistic explanation to any attempt to real and genuine enquiries. These overtly simplistic attempts to re-construct Christianity to a sheer institutional, hierarchical law-based membership club are utterly theologically nonsensical, and inconsistent with Christian history and tradition;
    
    Your further non-sense comment about me giving a lecture on Dominican membership, is rather childish and may I say- crass.
    
    In some ways in really makes us Catholics look like a bunch of fundamental religious zealots, and only reduces God to a set of rules and contained within a box; in some ways you also make the Church/Catholic Church modelled on an Insurance Company or Hillsong Inc., selling 'formulas' and 'visas' to get to heaven; rather than a pilgrim people of diverse collection who share a common thread of love for God/Jesus and his amazing story.
    
    By the way, can I just remind you-
    Jesus did not wear a chasuble, nor a stole, nor did he hear confessions nor write the Canon Law; those were our interpretations of his story and expressions of remembrance and religiosity;
    in fact, Jesus, Mary & Joseph lived and died as Jews, of a Hebrew minority tribe within the house of David.
    
    And Ronk- for you to trivialise my Christian identity is by far your lowest form of tactic in personal and hurtful attacks... is that what Jesus would do?

    Posted By: TJ Lawson

29. And actually TJ, Our Lord said of those who place obstacles in the way of little ones who have faith in Him to prevent them coming to Him, that it would be better for them if they had a great millstone tiead around their neck and were thrown into the sea - this was a form of capital punishment used at the time in Egypt and perhaps in the Holy Land.
    
    Kennedy & Fitzgerald can't even claim they acted out of ignorance. Not only did Abp Bathersby tell them in writing 4 years ago that such "baptisms" are invalid, the pope himself formally reiterated this fact last February. (See http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20080201_validity-baptism_en.html
    http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801159.htm
    )
    
    So there are two possibilities:
    1. Kennedy & Fitzgerald believe they know better than their bishop and the Pope what constitutes a valid baptism. Now it's one thing to personally believe what is objectively a heresy or to personally disagree with one's bishop's or Pope's formal authoritative teaching and directives. It is quite another to impose it deliberately on innocent third parties to their great spiritual detriment.
    
    Or 2. They are ware that they are wrong and are working in league with the Evil One to divert from Christianity those who are seeking in good faith to become Christians, or to have their children become Christians. Everyone has the right to become a Christian and it is wicked to rob anyone of this right.
    
    And of course an invalidly baptised person cannot validly receive ANY of the other sacraments.
    
    We are baptised into the Trinity, not just in the name of various actions of God (which "baptism" a Jew, Moslem or Sikh could equally receive in accordance with his own religion which denies Christ and His truth.)
    
    
    
    

    Posted By: Ronk

30. The words of institution "Take and consume. This is my body." and "Drink of this all. This is my blood of the new testament, which for many is shed for the the remission of sins." There is more or less of this recorded in each of the three synoptic Gospels, with things like "chalice" or "which for you is given up" being included or left out. The version I have given is from Matthew. There is some room for variation in what is added or taken away, but nothing can be added or taken away from this or any other sacrament, which is intended to change the nature of the sacrament, or the meaning of the words, or the intention to conform with the practice of the Church. Thus, the Orthodox baptismal formulas which use the passive voice are valid, but not the mormon which has a completely different intention. An atheist could baptize if they do what the Church does. Not even the Pope has the power to baptize except in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, except with water, without the water touching the skin and so on. Likewise with the Eucharist.

    Posted By: Kiran

31. Ronk, you misunderstand my comment. You may not intend to close down or cripple St Mary's. However, that's what the result will be. What you and your fellow conservatives clearly want is to impose your narrow authoritarian form of Catholicism. Plenty of rules, discipline, punishment, judgemental attidudes, and neglect of those who are marginalised, different, or who don't meet your high (?) standards. Not much about following Jesus Christ.
    
    The fact that Cardinal Hoyos, the President of the Vatican's own Tridentine Mass commission, Ecclesia Dei, recently accused some people who want the Tridentine Mass as 'insatiable' in their demands for the Latin Mass tells us a lot about conservative activities and thinking. He went on to warn against the harm they were doing. And Crnl.Hoyos is hardly a liberal!
    
    In Wales a few months ago the UK Latin Mass Society refused to proceed with a Tridentine Mass because there was a female altar server on the altar.
    
    Despite Ronk's protestations about just wanting to 'restore Catholicism', these are some of the attitudes that would be imposed on St Mary's.
    
    There is , I understand, a traditionalist parish in Brisbane. Why can't the critics be content with that and stop interfering in the affairs of other parishes.?
    
    Even better, could that parish contact St Mary's to arrange to visit, talk and see for themselves. It could be a start to the co-existence and mutual respect that is so necessary at the moment.
    
    It would be infinitely more constructive than a man coming down from Caboolture to deliberately take pictures of a Baptism on a mobile phone; no doubt he will send these to Rome and/or publish them on the internet to further inflame the situation. No wonder Crdnl. Hoyos talks about the harm being done to the Church.
    
    

    Posted By: Conor Bradley

32. May the Lord save us from these wackos - not the priests of St Mary's but the Catholic dopes who seem to think that adherence to a "correct form" is somehow a higher calling than our duty to Love God and one another.
    The liturgical form of the Church is in constant evolution - although the message we preach is unchanging the language and "ears" of the recipients are constantly evolving, requiring us to adapt. As so many contributors have pointed out, this is the history of the Church.

    Posted By: Michael Mac

33. Kiran,
    
    The words of Institution in the Roman Missal are not the words of Jesus despite the Missal saying they are......no fancy argument of yours can alter that fact. By the way, Jesus didn't die for "many"; he died for ALL.Also, we know that not all baptisms in Sacred Scripture were according to the Trinitarian formula....Acts indicates some baptisms were only "in the name of Jesus".....they seemed to be accepted as valid.

    Posted By: Francis

34. TJ, you tell me "for you to trivialise my Christian identity is by far your lowest form of tactic in personal and hurtful attacks". ???
    Did you not just say "I'll think twice before I get initiated into the Christian fold"?
    You can't tell us you're not a Christian and then claim to be "hurt" when someone repeats it.
    
    Do you even think at all before pounding away at your keyboard and clicking "Submit"?
    I repeat, how can anyone here take you or anything you say seriously?
    And nothing could be more "childish and crass" than your puerile comments on the Dominicans.
    
    You have exposed your basic mistake though. What you claim are "OUR interpretations" of Christ and how His Church and its members must act, worship and believe, are in fact the interpretations of Christ's personally appointed representatives which you and I are NOT at liberty to chuck out and alter on our personal whims. If you want a D-I-Y church, the Catholic Church is the wrong place to look.
    
    Conor, I've got no idea where you're coming from. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. Nothing I have said is "conservative" or "authoritarian", and I have certainly never promoted the Tridentine Mass, much less demanded that St Mary's be taken over by a Tridentine Mass group. In fact FYI I have never even attended such a Mass.

    Posted By: Ronk

35. LUCIFER,the ANGEL of LIGHT Disobeyed GOD;He was thrown out of Heaven.Adam and Eve DISOBEYED God,the result? Confusion and SIN .Perhaps these errant "priests and bishops" need to take note.But then,they think that they are above the 2000 yrs of great religious thinkers and philosophers like AUGUSTINE,THOMAS AQUINAS et al.Get real,St Marys,South Brisbane!Jesus invested HIS POWER AND AUTHORITY in the CHURCH OF PETER.Stop making a mockery of Lord's teachings.and of His Church.

    Posted By: M>M>

36. Francis, by what authority do you claim to “know” for a “fact” that “The words of Institution in the Roman Missal are not the words of Jesus”? and that “not all baptisms in Sacred Scripture were according to the Trinitarian formula”? St Luke doesn’t say, “some baptisms were ONLY in the name of Jesus”. YOU have invented the word “only” and falsely inserted it in Scripture.

    Posted By: Ronk

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