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1. With what does Harry Jenkins want to replace the Lord's Prayer? The dismissal of prayer in life has become a modern trend. There must be some spirit in people that moves them sometimes to seek help in their troubles - whether they call it prayer or not. Maybe we could have a prayer to all the Gods in Australia, Aboriginal, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, the Wealth Gods, the Sports Gods, the "me" Gods. Would that then satisfy everyone?

   Posted By: pat

2. Do we have to put up with this bulldust every few years from the tiny minority of miltant atheists who want to force upon everybody else their obtuse and obscene interpretation of "freedom of religion" to mean "freedom FROM religion"?
   
   ""One of the most controversial aspects of the parliamentary day"? What a joke. The public isn't concerned about our politicians saying prayers, we wish they'd say a lot more. By far more controversial than a 30-second prayer is all the countless hours they waste in Parliament on "Dorothy Dix" questions and political posturing instead of discussing the merits of proposed legislation like they are supposed to do.
   
   "Mr Jenkins questioned if the prayer, inserted into the standing orders in 1901, was relevant to the 21st century."
   It was composed 2000 years ago not in 1901, and has been used in parliaments for centuries before 1901. It's relevant to all centuries and can never become "old-fashioned", and there is nothing in it specific to Christianity, it can and should be said by everyone regardless of religious beliefs.

   Posted By: Ronk

3. Although Australia is not a 'Christian Country' per se, nevertheless our original settling and cultural beginnings have their roots in Christianity, as does all of Europe's modern civilization. All our social services, Schools, Hospitals, Orphanages, Charities etc. are the result of Christian influence - many having their beginnings with Nuns and Monks in Europe, long before the State bothered about non aristocrats or the plight of the common man.
   If nothing else, the Lord's Prayer is at least a 'nod' to Australia's beginnings.

   Posted By: Stan

4. hi
   I would hate to think that no one at all has contacted you to support separation of church from state.
   I for one support Harry Jenkins and Bob Brown in seeking the deletion of facing mecca or praying in a parliament that is supposed to represent me too

   Posted By: dave slatyer

5. The rituals which gather people together are as diverse as war-cries and solemn processional movements.
   
   It is worth learning a bit of history about prayers in Parliament:
   
   The practice of prayers is believed to have started in about 1558, and was common practice by 1567. The present form of prayers probably dates from the reign of Charles II. Members of the public are not allowed into the public galleries during prayers.
   
   MPs and Peers stand for prayers facing the wall behind them. It is thought this practice developed due to the difficulty Members would historically have faced of kneeling to pray while wearing a sword.
   
   So, it's not an ancient custom and could easily be dispensed without affecting the business of Government.
   
   I support the call to dispense with formal prayer in the Parliament as it is hardly prayer as understood in the Christian tradition. Given the legislation that our Houses of Parliament passed during the term of the Howard Government there is no evidence that prayer had any impact on legislation or the legislators.
   
   If there should be a ritual to begin the proceedings of Parliament then let's revive the old practice at papal coronations and have a friar run through the House of Reps and the Senate to remind the honourable members "Sic transit Gloria Mundi" (And yes. lets do it in Latin to honour another lost tradition!!!)

   Posted By: Tony Robertson

6. I don't think Harry Jenkins has any problem with a time for Prayer/Reflection, and neither do I. The problem is that Australia is not a Christian theocracy, or is it?
   Afterall, there are many MPs that are not Christians.
   Why should prayer/reflection time be exclusively Christian in prayer/reflection?
   why can't we rotate in leading the prayer/reflection, afterall prayer/reflection time is universal isn't it?
   
   And by the way Stan, our original settling and cultural beginnings of our roots in the shameful invasion and mass-murdering of indigenous people and their ancient culture/religion, and unfortunately mixed with a form of poisonous Christianity that largely (then) condones those evils, which included the silent consent to the persecution of non-White and Asian Australians.
   
   And by the way, it began more as the Established Church of England tradition, the state-religion of the British Empire, Anglicanism.

   Posted By: TJ Lawson

7. By the way, the 'Australian Christian Lobby' does not represent Christians, many of its values and agendas are un-Catholic and un-Christian. It is a highly ambiguous organization, funded by fundamentalist evangelical Protestants.

   Posted By: TJ Lawson

8. The problem I see with the Lord's Prayer is that, like the economic system, it looks good on paper but doesn't seem to work
   
   Maybe we could try another magic ritual and see if that is more effective
   
   Sacrifice a chicken perhaps or run around the House with a smoking vessel, in the same way as they do at midsummers day at Stonehenge every year.
   
   Lots of possibilities
   
   Alternatively carry on as usual and worry about something that actually matters

   Posted By: Phil

9. Tony,
   
   Brilliant !!!

   Posted By: paul

10. Dave, see my previous comment. This has nothing to do with separating church and state. Church and state have been separate in Australia since 1830.
    
    Tony, you'd better discuss your argument with Mr Jenkins. He claims the prayers are outdated because they started way back in 1901. You claim they started in 1558 so they're not ancient enough to be preserved.
    
    TJ, as mentioned, there is nothing exclusively Christian about the Lord's Prayer and the other short prayers said in parliament.
    
    TJ, please name these supposed Christians and their denomination in Australia which you absurdly claim condoned mass murder and the persecution of non-White and Asian Australians?
    
    And please name one thing on the agenda of the Australian Christian Lobby (an ecumenical group whose governing board includes representatives from all major Christian groups in Australia) which is as you claim unChristian or even unCatholic? Or even "highly ambiguous"? Here's their website: http://www.acl.org.au/
    You really can't help sticking your foot in your mouth can you?

    Posted By: Ronk

11. It's no wonder our western countries are considered with disdain by those of other faiths who are outspoken by their belief in their gods.
    How can a Society hope for any help when we want to disregard our God through prayer.
    Maybe the speaker of the house needs replacing!

    Posted By: Sue Martin

12. Ronk, you said: "there is nothing exclusively Christian about the Lord's Prayer and the other short prayers said in parliament."
    
    Let me share with you Catechism 101: The Lord's Prayer is said and taught by Jesus Christ to his followers. The followers of Jesus Christ are Christians, hence it is a Christian prayer.
    
    Would you recite the Muslim "Fatiha" as it is deemed universal too? or ancient Buddhist mantras/blessings... which some people feel are even more inclusive?

    Posted By: TJ Lawson

13. It's interesting Ronk to see how you who are so anti-protestant airing support for ACL... there is no single Catholic on their board, and you’ve rushed to embrace ACL; the small group of people running the so called 'Australian Christian Lobby' (big name, little representation' are by the way known for their ultra-Protestant/Evangelical theologies, I suppose you and they probably share a lot in common in your right wing-fundamentalist views?

    Posted By: TJ Lawson

14. I don't know why I bother replying to your nonsense TJ, but:
    
    Of course the Lord's Prayer is a Christian prayer (that whole "the Lord's" part is a bit of a give-away don't you think?) I never claimed it isn't. I merely pointed out that it is not an EXCLUSIVELY Christian prayer. Those who entirely reject God's revelation to Christians and Jews can say it with perfect honesty and sincerity.
    
    And yes I have and do say moslem and Buddhist prayers, I even say one on a daily basis. Contrary to your blinkered worldview which seems to think that anyone who like me actually believes that Catholic doctrines are true, must consequently believe that everyone outside the Church and all of their works are the spawn of Satan with which all contact must be avoided at all costs.
    
    I suppose it's pointless asking for any evidence for your absurd accusations that I am "anti-protestant", "right-wing" or "fundamentalist" LOL. I believe Catholic doctrines. Naturally that means that I reject those few protestant doctrines which contradict Catholic doctrines. That is not being "anti-protestant". And I have frequently and vociferously condemned here, right-wingism and fundamentalism, and certainly never given them my support!
    
    I did not "embrace" the ACL, I merely refuted your absurd accusations that it is "un-Catholic and un-Christian" and "highly ambiguous" (sheesh, look who's talking!). It doesn't mean that I embrace or want to join an organisation just because I object to your telling lies about it.

    Posted By: Ronk

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