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1. I agree wholeheartedly with Fr Tim Harris that the death penalty is not the answer.
   
   I realise that there are some who have been deeply hurt by the actions of the Bali Bombers - loss of loved ones but I see no point in their death sentence nor the death sentence for anyone. Their deaths serve revenge only. This a state condoned brutality.
   
   The message of Jesus is to forgive your enemies which I believe is the hardest of Jesus' teachings to follow. I have anger towards many of our leaders both religious and civil for the mess that has been made of our world through a variety of non action or actions.
   
   We do indeed need a new world order but one based on justice and respect for all. Why is this so elusive ..........is it our cultures that breed racism and discrimination against others who are different?
   
   My son raised a Catholic has become a convert to the Muslim faith. He is an idealistic, enthusiastic, beautiful, young man who was searching for a true direction. He has our love and respect for his choice of way of life.
   
   I am sad for all who are put to death by states no matter what their crime.
   
   

   Posted By: MaggieG

2. I can't understand what is the real issue here killing the bombers as well as bombing innocent lives in war torn country as for passing the abortion bill. If only a poll count the lives that will be executed during the abortion it will surely be a heart beat to be recognise

   Posted By: aloisio maravu

3. Fr. Harris says that
   
   "Our government needs to speak consistently on the death penalty for all ... It can't say 'Save Scott and kill the Bali bombers'"
   
   But to speak consistently means to speak consistently of apples and oranges respectively, not to toss them all into the same basket and speak of them without regard to their essential differences. Why ever can’t the Australian Government say “'Save Scott and kill the Bali bombers”, when drug running is manifestly not in the worst category of crimes, while mass murder is clearly about as bad as it gets? The South-East Asian governments tend to use the death penalty for utilitarian reasons, as a means to ends such as deterrence, when capital punishment should only ever be used as an end in itself (i.e. I am talking about capital punishment strictly so called, capital punishment qua punishment, not merely lethal defence of oneself or of others, which few doubt is licit). That is why we should protest against the way they use it, not because it is intrinsically wrong.
   
   And given that Fr. Harris agrees that the Bali bombers ought to face a harsh punishment, how can he reject the death penalty for them, when it would be absurd to deny that there is a due relation between the crime of murder and the punishment of execution?
   
   Furthermore, Fr. Harris says that he has “ the utmost contempt for what the Bali bombers have done but I will never lower myself to their level”. But how is the death penalty ‘lowering oneself to their level’, when the death penalty can be a just and judicious use of the State’s power over its subjects, whereas the Bali bombing was a heinous and utterly unjustified wanton taking of innocent life? If it is by the bare fact that both acts involve the taking of a human life that Fr. Harris thinks of capital punishment as ‘lowering himself to their level’, then is Father also opposed to just wars, in which one takes up arms against an enemy and thereby, superficially at least (as in the case of the death penalty), imitates the enemy?
   
   Catholics ought to stand up for the timeless Traditional teaching on the liceity of the death penalty as a just punishment.
   
   Reginaldvs Cantvar

   Posted By: Cardinal Pole

4. Killing the Bali bombers will give them exactly what they want. They only appealed against the sentence because it would increase the publicity. If they are executed their manic supporters will undoubtedly proclaim them "martyrs", a blasphemous misuse of this holy word.
   
   They should be imprisoned for life with hard labour, with the profits from their work going to the victims and the victims' families. And preferably in solitary confinement but definitely no contact with the media or with other moslem fundamentalists.
   In fact being made to listen 16 hours a day to continuous recordings of readings from the Bible, the Catechism and Catholic apologetics would be nice.

   Posted By: Ronk

5. Cardinal Pole, I will simply quote Pope John Paul II in regard to the death penalty:
   
   "Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary."

   Posted By: Alex Knight

6. Ronk, I agree with you on your comments in the first sentence...
   "Killing the Bali bombers will give them exactly what they want. They only appealed against the sentence because it would increase the publicity."
   
   The rest - it's a little off note I think.

   Posted By: TJ Lawson

7. >Reginaldvs Cantvar, Posted By: Cardinal Pole<
   
   your rationale does not reflect at all any authentic catholic teachings of the day, in fact, you’re very close to illicit the same sort of theology that is equal to extremist Islamic groups.
   An eye for the eye… only makes the whole world blind, my brother.

   Posted By: TJ Lawson

8. Regardless of either giving or not giving satisfaction to the bombers, the law is the law. The law is also correct in terms of capital punishment to fit capital crimes. The law should not be mocked or put aside due to emotional or religious blackmail.
   The death penalty for serious crimes in found in the Koran just as it is found in the Old and New Testaments. St Paul supports it just as do the evangelists who write showing that the good thief onthe Cross says he deserves his punishment. Christ also says in the Gospels that those who take away the innocence of children should be thrown into the depths of the sea with a large millstone around their necks.
   The late Pope John Paul II merely modified the application of the death penalty. Further modifications were made to Evangelium Vitae and to the Cathechism of the Catholic Church to ensure that no ambiguity remains in terms of the death penalty still being valid in principle.

   Posted By: Michael Webb

9. I think a subconscious reason for the repugnance held about the use of the death penalty is because many people in the Church today are fearful of death and of just punishments for sin and crime in general. This shows a lack of faith. Death is not the end of everything; not the end of our hopes. Whether we live long or short lives or even are executed for crimes, so long as we repent then Heaven is ours. Oh ye of little faith, pinning all your hopes on this life alone (subconsciously) . The antithesis of true religion !

   Posted By: Michael Webb

10. Ronk, it amuses me to see you frothing over "a blasphemous misuse of this holy word" when you've only just finished labelling someone else a "manic supporter". Do you understand what psychological projection is?

    Posted By: AJ

11. Alex Knight,
    
    There is no doubt that society has non-lethal means with which to protect itself. But it is not primarily a question of protection, but of punishment; I am talking about capital punishment qua punishment, that is, capital punishment as an end in itself, thus balancing the scales of justice. There is lethal punishment and there is lethal defence; the former is an end in itself, the latter is a means to an end.
    
    Let me quote the Catechism of the Council of Trent, treating the Fifth Commandment:
    
    "Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder ..."
    
    If you require more information please visit me at
    
    cardinalpole.blogspot.com
    
    T.J. Lawson,
    
    Instead of offering wild but predictable assertions, please demonstrate why the Bali bombers should not be put to death.
    
    Mr. Webb,
    
    you are right to speak of the fear of just punishments that underpins the anti-execution position. I would be fascinated to hear from death penalty opponents what they think justice is.

    Posted By: Cardinal Pole

12. What would Jesus do?

    Posted By: TJ Lawson

13. Maggie, God's love shines through you... thank you for sharing your story.
    There is no easy path to forgiveness, and the crime is heinous; to support state-sanction violence is something I myself cannot support, because even when my Lord and Saviour was nailed to the cross, he desired no one to punished by death; he forgave and surrendered to love and peace.
    

    Posted By: TJ Lawson

14. Cardinal Pole, are you serious???

    Posted By: Pat

15. Well said Cardinal Pole ! Your reference to the lawfulness of capital punishment and its justification from the Council of Trent is something that should be widely broadcast in these strange times.

    Posted By: Michael Webb

16. Dear Pat,
    
    Of course Cardinal Pole and myself are serious. So too is the Council of Trent which simply supports the Church's teaching forever. Capital punishment has as one of its aims PUNISHMENT, that is justice. It is not murder. So long as the criminal repents of his/her crime, then Heaven can still be theirs.

    Posted By: Michael Webb

17. AJ, if it's an "abuse" of the word "manic", to use it to describe people who have continually expressed as their only regret over the Bali bombings, the fact that even more non-Moslems were not killed, and smile as they assure us that they will be rewarded with 72 virgins in Paradise for murdering non-moslems and anyone who associates with them, and promise to kill many more until everyone has been either killed or forcibly converted to Islam; then I plead guilty to "abuse"of the word.
    
    TJ, I suggest you try actually reading the gospels, then you wouldn't constantly be at a loss to know what Jesus would do: you'll find that, far from your assertion that "He desired no one to punished by death", in fact He REJECTED the unrepentant thief's taunt, "If you are the Christ, save Yourself and us too!" and allowed both the thieves and Himself to be executed, even though He, unlike them, was innocent.

    Posted By: Ronk

18. T.J. Lawson,
    
    You seem unwilling to offer me anything other than slogans. Please could you explain by what theory of justice you opposed the execution of the Bali bombers?
    

    Posted By: Cardinal Pole

19. Now they have been executed, and their manic supporters are proclaiming them "martyrs". As usual TJ, it is YOU who hit the off note. My prediction was spot on, I'm sad to see.

    Posted By: Ronk

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